Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Tai Shi]

I have found that in the past year I’ve been asking more about actually Soto Zen practice. I started the book Genjokoan and this next year will continue reading. It is my hope to get into the Diamond Sutra, to review Red Pine on the Heart Sutra, not sure I got much initially and continue learning about history of Buddhism, specifically b differences between Theravada, Tibetan, and Mahayana.
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

Gasho,
Ryan
Sat Today

Hi Ryan,

Is you Zafu perhaps rather tall, or are you sitting a bit far back on the Zafu? Your spine should be slightly in front of the center axle of the round Zafu, and the Zafu should wedge nicely to offer support. Like here:



This fellow is too far back ...



I am thinking that something like this is too high, and would also put strain to stay on board ...



There should be no such strain to stay in position. Experiment and report back.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bokugan]

First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

Gasho,
Ryan
Sat Today

[drew]

Jundo,

thank you. I did notice the different biases or basis in each book. I did find the walkthrough history in circle of Zen very interesting and also realized that I will need to read it again later to gain better insight. I forgot to mention that I have also listen all 22 of your intro videos, thanks for those as well.

I'm off to sit.

Gassho, drew

[Jundo]

True beginners mind here.

History:
I have been sitting zazen twice a day for 30 minutes each session. I've been doing this for the last 14 days. I've also read "Beginners Mind" by Suzuki, "Why Buddhism is true" by Wright, "What is Zen" by Fisher and Moon, "The Circle of the Way" by O'Brian, and now reading "Taking the Path of Zen" by Aitken.

Question:
When I sit, the "clouds" that come into my mind are zen sayings and zen focused thoughts instead of being emotions or other issues in my life. Should I quit reading about zen until I asorb what's bouncing around and the zen clouds quite down?

Gassho, Drew

Hi Drew,

Welcome again, and Happy New This Moment!

When clouds of thought come, whether on Zen sayings or that you need to buy eggs or whatever, just let them drift by and away without engaging with them too much. Know the clarity, openness and light of the clear sky that shines between AND right through the clouds as they drift. Clouds come and clouds go, to be met with the same nonengagement and equanimity as anything else in the room where you sit, like a table in the corner or the sound of a car passing outside.

So, it is okay to keep reading and studying a bit (when off the sitting cushion, of course! )

By the way, those books you mention are all wonderful, but know that they each come from somewhat different approaches to Buddhism and/or Zen, like different chefs talking about how they make soup. Beginners Mind is a Soto Zen classic, and "What Is Zen" is also about at the top of my own list of books recommended for folks new to Soto Zen. But why Buddhism is true is a very stripped down psychological approach to vipassana and "mindfulness" meditation. "Taking the Path of Zen" is also excellent, but Aitken Roshi comes from a corner of Zen Buddhism that emphasizes Koan centered Zazen to attain Kensho experiences, and that comes through on some pages of the book. "Circle of Zen" is a wonderful history, but might be a lot of information for somebody so new to the Practice.

In any case ... keep sitting!

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Shokai]

Hi Drew;

It almost sounds as if you are seeing these clouds like the balloons in comics. This reminds me of a few months ago a lady in our Monday sitting group (she has been sitting Zazen for over thirty years) asked how one opens the hand of thought and lets the thoughts go because she thinks mostly in pictures and it takes some time for the images to dissipate. Well, I put the question out here on the forum and one of our members replied that for years he has been struggling with images of hand positions demonstrating various ways to play chords on a keyboard. It finally occurred to him that this was his egos way of catching his attention; being a pianist and practicing different voicings is a preoccupation with him and his ego recognized that. Once he caught on to this he no longer saw it as a problem and his brain stopped showing the hand positions. Nothing has power except what you give it (quote from a greek philosopher) There is no good Zazen and there is no bad Zazen. There is just YOUR Zazen. Shall we dance?

gassho, Shokai
stlah

P.s. can we see your avatar sometime soon?

[drew]

True beginners mind here.

History:
I have been sitting zazen twice a day for 30 minutes each session. I've been doing this for the last 14 days. I've also read "Beginners Mind" by Suzuki, "Why Buddhism is true" by Wright, "What is Zen" by Fisher and Moon, "The Circle of the Way" by O'Brian, and now reading "Taking the Path of Zen" by Aitken.

Question:
When I sit, the "clouds" that come into my mind are zen sayings and zen focused thoughts instead of being emotions or other issues in my life. Should I quit reading about zen until I asorb what's bouncing around and the zen clouds quite down?

Gassho, Drew

[Jundo]

Could you please look at posts at end of Precepts on anger? I have I think been angry about weather or not Shikantaza was going well, but today somewhat sad’ I followed directions for Zazen as best I can and used insight timer. Time felt like nothing and when I finished at about 17 min 40 sec I felt nothing at first then calm.
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One should sit in equanimity and patience, accepting even days when it is sunny or when it rains, when Zazen feels "right and calm" or feels "off" somehow. Then, if sitting with such equanimity and patience, Zazen is always right and there is nothing to be angry about.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tai Shi]

Could you please look at posts at end of Precepts on anger? I have I think been angry about weather or not Shikantaza was going well, but today somewhat sad’ I followed directions for Zazen as best I can and used insight timer. Time felt like nothing and when I finished at about 17 min 40 sec I felt nothing at first then calm.
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hello Jundo
Profile pic:-
I just went to my profile page and the second photo I tried to upload is there - is that one ok, or would you prefer a different one without the dog and shades? Please let me know if I need to change it or not.
avatar image:-
I assume I still need to upload a 80x80 pixel photo? Am not sure how to find something so small (I'm a Luddite by choice which can be a problem when you actually need to use the machine!) - I will work on that later today.
Gassho
Scott

Hi Scott,

I love dogs (honestly, well, I am more of a cat fellow although dogs are great too!), but would prefer a human face. It helps keep things warm and human (not furry) around here. Thank you.

Instructions are here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12837-Often-Asked-How-to-Add-an-Avatar-Photo

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[DogBreath]

Hello Jundo
Profile pic:-
I just went to my profile page and the second photo I tried to upload is there - is that one ok, or would you prefer a different one without the dog and shades? Please let me know if I need to change it or not.
avatar image:-
I assume I still need to upload a 80x80 pixel photo? Am not sure how to find something so small (I'm a Luddite by choice which can be a problem when you actually need to use the machine!) - I will work on that later today.
Gassho
Scott

[DogBreath]

Thanks, I will check out the links and try to upload another photo.
Gassho
Scott

[Kevin Benbow]

<gassho>

Klb
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hello
I have some questions about video 20 - what can it actually mean to save another sentient being?
How can anyone "save" anyone else?
Aren't we "saved" when we sit?
So if someone refuses to sit?.....

As I understand it in Mahayana the Bodhisatva vow is usually some form of "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings".
Is it the same/similar in this tradition?
If so, I save other sentient beings by attaining my own buddhahood? (Hhmmm truly talking in two directions at the same time - I am slowly starting to pick this zen thing up!)


Also, how is compassion defined in this tradition?
If I want to be "compassionate" then knowing what constitutes that is kind of important!
Previously, I heard from a teacher (different tradition) who defined compassion as seeing the source of a persons suffering; so, a compassionate act is always one that diminishes suffering; this means to assist a suffering person to see their cause of suffering as a result of being in conflict (somewhere along the line) with, or denial of, the four noble truths - the remedy being the Noble Eightfold Path (a self-referential feedback loop for the four noble truths). Is it the same in zen or am I looking for some emotional content based around "heart"?
(I am compassionate in daily life - ask all my rescue dogs! - and I put the flies outside too)

Thanks
Gassho
Scott

Hi Scott,

First, may I ask you to change your photo from a dog to a human face? Although a dog has Buddha Nature, and although we love dogs, there is something about a human face that let's us look each other in the eyes and be a bit warmer here. Thank you.

Next, on saving sentient beings ... although, truly there were never any sentient beings from the first in need of saving ... I usually tell folks this:

This wise-crazy [Mahayana] Way is to realize, and allow other sentient beings to realize, that there have never been (ultimately) any sentient beings from the start, and thus (in the Wholeness which is "Emptiness") no conflict or lack from the start in need of repairing and rescuing! In the Wholeness which is emptiness, there is no lack in need of filling. Allowing sentient being to experience so in this world of separate beings who conflict and lack is how we rescue-non-rescue these beings-non-beings.

However, so long as they/we are alive ("birth and death", by the way, are also ultimately only one way to view things), the sentient beings still need to live in this complicated, sometimes beautiful and sometimes ugly world, so another way to rescue sentient beings is to help them master how to live in the interplay of these two ways of viewing ... lack and no lack, fear and nothing originally to fear, conflicts and no individuals to conflict, death but no death etc. It's tricky!

Finally, in modern times, many Buddhists have become a bit more focused on "rescuing sentient beings" by material actions in this world, e.g., feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, etc. It was not that Buddhists would not have liked to do such in the past (and there were many ancient Buddhists who did good charitable work like that in the past), but it was much harder in the medieval, agricultural, traditional, class bound kingdoms and empires of old Asia. So, a lot of Buddhists took the attitude that this world was just hopeless, best to "get out of Dodge," either by escaping rebirth completely or just building a wall and shutting the monastery gates. Now, today, in modern societies, "engaged" Buddhist efforts to make an impact on the problems of society such as hunger, war and poverty are possible for the first time, so many Buddhists (Treeleaf folks among them) are more socially involved.

Many ways to rescue even if ... ultimately ... nobody in need of rescue. Even if there are no hungry mouths to feed "ultimately" ... there are hungry mouths to feed in this world, so let's feed them!

It is not merely a matter of compelling others to sit Zazen (I don't know that it would be legal!), nor even something that we can even accomplish. However, the above also tells us that, while we keep working, there was never anything to "accomplish" from the start. Thus our crazy-wise Bodhisattva Vows which many of us recite say this ...

To save all sentient beings, though beings numberless

To transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible

To perceive Reality, though Reality is boundless

To attain the Enlightened Way, a Way non-attainable

As to Compassion, it is really all of the above too, and has many facets. First, reality is already "Compassionate" because there is not suffering from the startless start. Yet, sentient beings in their broken vision of the world do not realize this, so we are Compassionate when we seek to get suffering sentient beings to realize this Wholeness of Emptiness. We are also Compassionate when we reach out to aid people in their earthly needs and pains. Alas, it is an endless road, yet we have never but arrived!

Does that make any sense?

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[DogBreath]

Hello
I have some questions about video 20 - what can it actually mean to save another sentient being?
How can anyone "save" anyone else?
Aren't we "saved" when we sit?
So if someone refuses to sit?.....

As I understand it in Mahayana the Bodhisatva vow is usually some form of "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings".
Is it the same/similar in this tradition?
If so, I save other sentient beings by attaining my own buddhahood? (Hhmmm truly talking in two directions at the same time - I am slowly starting to pick this zen thing up!)


Also, how is compassion defined in this tradition?
If I want to be "compassionate" then knowing what constitutes that is kind of important!
Previously, I heard from a teacher (different tradition) who defined compassion as seeing the source of a persons suffering; so, a compassionate act is always one that diminishes suffering; this means to assist a suffering person to see their cause of suffering as a result of being in conflict (somewhere along the line) with, or denial of, the four noble truths - the remedy being the Noble Eightfold Path (a self-referential feedback loop for the four noble truths). Is it the same in zen or am I looking for some emotional content based around "heart"?
(I am compassionate in daily life - ask all my rescue dogs! - and I put the flies outside too)

Thanks
Gassho
Scott