Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

p.s. As to Jundo's comment He was being very kind by invoking the myth that Japanese are very petite. Owing to the swift world wide explosion of fast food diets, modern Japanese body style is much the same as everywhere else. Having had the experience of embalming over 3000 Japanese bodies, thin, obese, muscular or not, I can truthfully say, their hips were much more open than westerners and it is attributable to sitting cross legged on the ground from day one. Westerner's illio-psoas muscles are in general, tighter than drum strings as a result of the way we sit.

This is fascinating, and I hope that I may requote you on this to some other Zen folk.

We will dedicate a part of our Zazenkai tomorrow with Kyonin to all the folks with creaky knees, hips and backs.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Onka]

Hello everybody,

I watch an episode almost everyday before I sit. I have already learned that there are some some good sits and on other days some not so good sits. I'm fine with that. It's ok as Jundo would say.

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

Gassho
Marwin
SatToday

Hey Marwin

Welcome to Treeleaf. I'm a new practitioner and also not very stretchy but was told by anyone I've ever asked that I should sit however I can sit. Mostly I sit in a comfortable lounge chair, sometimes sitting up but more often reclined. I often 'sit' lying down either on my back or on my side. If I'm really feeling ok I sit leaning against a tree in the bush. Sitting is sitting... The important thing is to sit. Oh yeah, give yourself permission to sit however long you can on a particular day whether 5 minutes or 5 hours. Again just sit. Every day I sit at 4am. I always set my meditation timer for 45 minutes but mostly only make it to between 15 and 30 minutes. This morning was only 10 minutes because my spine was sore but it was a good quality 10 minutes but again, I sat.
Be kind to yourself comrade.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today/Lent a hand

[Shokai]

It's approximately 350 feet from our house to the corner store. When i first moved here five years ago at age 78 I could usually take maybe two or three minutes to get there. Now, due to knee damage, it takes over five minutes. I say to myself, "Dam, I look like an old man." And, I must admit the pain is excruciating. I used to sit Zazen in the half lotus position up until three years ago when it became very painful to sit that way. Now I sit Zazen preferably in a straight back chair without arms. It seems very uncomfortable to have my elbows up high like that because my shoulders become hunched and painful. But hey, I'm already three years older than Buddha and still enjoying every good day. As Yogi Berra would have said, "Life is 90% attitude, the other half is just showing up!"

bows in gassho, Shokai

stlah
p.s. As to Jundo's comment

with generally thinner bodies in the past.

He was being very kind by invoking the myth that Japanese are very petite. Owing to the swift world wide explosion of fast food diets, modern Japanese body style is much the same as everywhere else. Having had the experience of embalming over 3000 Japanese bodies, thin, obese, muscular or not, I can truthfully say, their hips were much more open than westerners and it is attributable to sitting cross legged on the ground from day one. Westerner's illio-psoas muscles are in general, tighter than drum strings as a result of the way we sit.

[Tai Shi]

I've reviewed these videos for beginners, and Jundo tells me that there is no problem sitting in straight-back chair. I have severe back and knee problems, and for me I've even sat in easy chair, and lying on operating table just before going under for an operation. Jundo tells me that sitting is possible in nearly any position though admittedly some positions are much easier. I'm a beginner even though I've been sitting for 5 years. Shikantaza means just sitting and I've found this is as much just sitting or just reclining, or just reclining fully.
Tai Shi
Gassho
sat

[Jundo]

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

Hi Marwin,

Asia was a more floor based sitting culture, with generally thinner bodies in the past. Don't do the impossible in forcing yourself into extreme position. l know more than a few Buddhist teachers who attribute their knee problems to the Lotus.

That said, we have had a few threads on this, and some other folks may be able to offer advice. l usually sit in Burmese or Half, but once in a long while Full Lotus to honor tradition. l may stop as my knees are getting worse with age.

Also, l strongly advise to read this book ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

One of our Yoga teachers made the below comment connected to the youtube posted there ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16689-Sat-without-pain-stretches-for-hips&p=235400&viewfull=1#post235400

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

More threads to look at Marwin. Generally, it is best to sit when not sleepy, so may you should change time to morning or afternoon if possible. lf not, when sleepy ... just be sleepy.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/search.php?searchid=992507

You will find a few tips in some of those threads, and you must simply find what seems to work for you.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Marw]

Hello everybody,

I watch an episode almost everyday before I sit. I have already learned that there are some some good sits and on other days some not so good sits. I'm fine with that. It's ok as Jundo would say.

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

Gassho
Marwin
SatToday

[Tai Shi]

I began with a talk for beginners about non- sitting, sitting, correction of misconception of mysticism, which is not Shikantaza, or not just sitting, is sitting not Stoicism, but just sitting. At 8:30 pm Central USA daylight a.m. sat after reciting robe verse, no one else showed up, sat up out after 20 min. of sitting, time non sitting. My usual sitting unless I'm sitting with a group; then I reflected on my posture sitting upright in straight back chair, legs, feet tucked under chair, checking feet from time to time without breaking Shikantaza, and at the end of my 20 min. no one had shown up on sitting space, so I had sat in proper form in not a Burmese style with feet tucked under chair. Disabilities can be worked with. Ended up on this page listening to beginning of Zazenkai in March, today being Thur. Sept. 19, 2019.

Tai Shi
sat
Gassho

Ah, a classic for sure! Here it is Kyotai:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9471-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-WHAT-s-NEXT%21-%21&p=71930&viewfull=1#post71930

Gassho
Byokan
sat + lah

Thank you so much Byokan!

Kyotai
ST

[Byokan]

Ah, a classic for sure! Here it is Kyotai:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9471-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-WHAT-s-NEXT%21-%21&p=71930&viewfull=1#post71930

Gassho
Byokan
sat + lah

I was wondering if anyone knows where to find a particular video Jundo had done years back titled "What's Next.."? I really enjoyed it and wanted to share it with my ango partner.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[BevBee]

I am enjoying the talks in Shikantaza meditation videos, something I am already familiar with doing. What I really enjoyed in particular so far, was the blender noise in the first video, then the hammer analogy in the second one. These made me laugh, but they are so realistic about how a beginner actually needs to get the point of understanding how their mind has been operating throughout the day. If I ever get an opportunity to teach meditation again, I would certainly use these tools!

[Shinshi]

Hi,

I would say that, since this is not really a traditional form of sitting, but rather a lovely posture that has become common in recent decades for those with physical need, that you are free to create your own new "tradition."

Perhaps you can consider how to get seated practically, but also with some eye for being as balanced and graceful as possible in moving. I leave it to you. Also, add as many of the traditional elements as possible, such as Gassho toward the wall and room, turning always clockwise, fluffing the cushion with the two fingers and thumb of each hand ...

All traditions of the past started just so.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I do follow all the other traditional steps when I sit. I will see if I can come up with something at least a little graceful - but really isn't one of my areas of strength.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

I have a question about protocol / correct form when sitting Zazen seiza style - either using the Zafu or a bench.

I am one of the least flexible people on the planet and I gave up trying to sit any other way than seiza back in the 90s. What I do currently is that I follow the steps as outlined in Video 12 except that rather than sit and rotate I just kind of climb up on my Zafu like an Ox climbing over a rock. Not very elegant.

I have tried sitting, rotating and then re-arranging but it feels a little cumbersome, and how would that even work with a bench?

So I was wondering if there is a correct form for settling into the seiza position at the beginning of Zazen.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Hi,

I would say that, since this is not really a traditional form of sitting, but rather a lovely posture that has become common in recent decades for those with physical need, that you are free to create your own new "tradition."

Perhaps you can consider how to get seated practically, but also with some eye for being as balanced and graceful as possible in moving. I leave it to you. Also, add as many of the traditional elements as possible, such as Gassho toward the wall and room, turning always clockwise, fluffing the cushion with the two fingers and thumb of each hand ...

All traditions of the past started just so.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shinshi]

I have a question about protocol / correct form when sitting Zazen seiza style - either using the Zafu or a bench.

I am one of the least flexible people on the planet and I gave up trying to sit any other way than seiza back in the 90s. What I do currently is that I follow the steps as outlined in Video 12 except that rather than sit and rotate I just kind of climb up on my Zafu like an Ox climbing over a rock. Not very elegant.

I have tried sitting, rotating and then re-arranging but it feels a little cumbersome, and how would that even work with a bench?

So I was wondering if there is a correct form for settling into the seiza position at the beginning of Zazen.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

Jundo,

I received my new zafu and zabuton a few days ago. I chose to try a traditional round, buckwheat hull stuffed zafu and thicker kapok filled (but soft) zabuton. I have been sitting mostly Burmese now as well. These changes have helped tremendously! I barely get any tingling or numbness going on now and what minor bit may occur goes away immediately upon standing (no long lasting numbness of rush of sensation/pain when I get up now). I removed a bit of fill from the zafu after my first zazen with it and that improved it for me too.

I was able to sit my first Zazenkai tonight without pain thanks to the changes. Thank you!

Gassho /\
Kendrick
SatTonight/LAH

Good!

Gassho, J

STLah