Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

Hello to the sanga,

I have a question about eyes. I searched much of the forum and did not find this particular question...

When I sit with my eyes open, they get dry and start burning. And then I find that I have to blink a lot and even then they continue stinging. (Perhaps it is that I am in a very dry climate, or just that I am a beginning beginner.)

In Jundo's instruction on how to sit, he says that whatever posture you sit in is the right way if it helps you forget your body. (I think that's the way it was said.)

Does the same hold true of the eyes? If it is very distracting to have them open, is one better served by closing them while holding the intention to not block out the "outside" world?

Apologies for running long.

Thank you ����

Aimee B.
sat lah

The eyes should be normal, like when driving a car. You seem to be doing, or trying to do, something extreme with the eyes (such as not blink, stare fixedly or the like). Maybe this will help ...

Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16743-Drivin-Dogen-Understanding-Open-Spacious-Awareness

I sometimes comment this too:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

What a room looks like before Zazen ...



What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "



If you need more specific help, and the problem persists, let me know. Basically, if you don't have such problem when driving or riding in a car, you should not during Zazen.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Uran]

Hello to the sanga,

I have a question about eyes. I searched much of the forum and did not find this particular question...

When I sit with my eyes open, they get dry and start burning. And then I find that I have to blink a lot and even then they continue stinging. (Perhaps it is that I am in a very dry climate, or just that I am a beginning beginner.)

In Jundo's instruction on how to sit, he says that whatever posture you sit in is the right way if it helps you forget your body. (I think that's the way it was said.)

Does the same hold true of the eyes? If it is very distracting to have them open, is one better served by closing them while holding the intention to not block out the "outside" world?

Apologies for running long.

Thank you 🙏🏼

Aimee B.
sat lah

[BrianK]

Thank You Jundo. Just watched #6 (watched the other 5 first!). I will practice letting go and not judging, just sitting and accepting, while also still doing what needs to be done in life, "...acceptance without acceptance, inner stillness and outward action combined, allowing and tolerant."

Huge help, thanks again.

Gassho,
Brian

sat today/lah

[Artien]

I get it now. 2 days ago I had what you could say was a good Zazen sit. I saw the blue sky and the clouds. I was the mirror. Before it felt like "faking it." when sitting. Havent managed it since, but it's not important. I know it's there now, within me.

So my sensere thank you for your lessons, wisdom and insights.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Artien
SatToday/LaH

[Artien]

Thank you, Jundo.

And thank you too Bion. I like the analogy you presented of doing vs being.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

[Jundo]

After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

Just sit Zazen, letting things be in the world, not judging or tangled in thoughts, with a radical allowance of all that is ...

... and one is bound to experience what is this "clear mirror." It is as if all the world is held in wholeness and illumination, including us. All things are just "as they are," ups and downs, good and bad, the welcome and unwelcome, beautiful and ugly, all prove Welcome (Big W) in the wholeness of the mirror. The mirror rejects nothing.

Don't worry so much if you can't get your head around it right now. Just sit with such equanimity.

The Blue Sky is just the mirror too, and the clouds of thoughts, of this and that, good and bad, etc., are not rejected by the sky. The clouds ARE the sky. You and I are the sky and clouds. It is precisely the same teaching, mirror and sky, clouds and things in the mirror, just different analogies depicting this wholeness which is separation, separation which is the boundless, clear and open wholeness.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

I won’t dare to try and explain anything as if it was doctrine.. I will say just that TO ME, the two are tied into each other.. “Watching clouds” requires an observer and the object observed, so we operate in a realm of separation: I watch “my own” thoughts and don’t interact with them, as if thoughts and observer were distinct. It is an action I take .. The mirror analogy, for me is the unification of that imaginary separation. The mirror is the space in which clouds passing by are reflected.. clouds don’t disturb the mirror, mirror doesn’t stop clouds, clouds and mirror exist as each other. That’s the nature of mind, free of divisions and self. So, I guess I understand it, in few words as : one is a doing and the other is being.
I’m sure you’ll get a proper and accurate reply soon enough. This is just my incomplete ideas, so don’t give them too much credit, please!
Sorry, I tried to be brief but still ran long.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Artien]

After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

[Tai Shi]

I visit at least one sitting session with Treeleaf folks every day. Soon I will start Zazenkai because I am well enough. For me Treeleaf has become sitting.
Gassho
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mason]

I’ve been watching one video a day before my morning Zazen and I just finished the final beginner’s video this morning. For now I have no questions that haven’t already been asked in this thread, but I just wanted to express my gratitude for this wonderful resource. They’ve been very very helpful, so thank you Jundo!

Gassho,
Mason
Sat

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I suspected as much; I have been doing my best to follow each teaching as I receive it, and I suspect that I will find balance somewhere including all of them with practice.

Love the cat by the way!

Gassho,
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

[Tomás ESP]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly

Thank you for sharing Kelly, I am glad you enjoyed it

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly