Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Koutoku]

I am not able to relocate the thread for Zendo do and don't during Zazenkai. Please advise. Thanks.

Gassho,
Judy
sat

[Tosei]

Number 7. Masterful metaphors. Dawn after a cloudy night.

Gassho,

Peter, who sat.

[Jundo]

Video #1 evoked a strong visceral reaction to the contrast between blender and calm. I “felt” how violent my constant mental chatter can become and had to watch it several times before I could allow myself to move on. Video #2 raised self-doubt and the question in me, “can I actually put down the hammer?”

Gassho
Simone
~sat today~

Hi Simone,

Welcome again.

You will find that many acts in Zen practice happen by -not- trying too much. I sometimes compare letting thoughts go to the child's game of "Chinese finger cuffs." Remember those?



The more one pulls and pulls, the tighter they become, and the more difficult to escape. But simply relax, stop pulling, and they drop right off.

Remember that our way is not to stop all thoughts and emotions in Zazen. Thoughts still come and go. It is just that we don't engage with them, let them lead us one after the other, or buy into what the emotions are selling. We just disentangle from thoughts.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLah

[simone]

Video #1 evoked a strong visceral reaction to the contrast between blender and calm. I “felt” how violent my constant mental chatter can become and had to watch it several times before I could allow myself to move on. Video #2 raised self-doubt and the question in me, “can I actually put down the hammer?”

Gassho
Simone
~sat today~

[Jundo]

Yes that helps immensely. Thank you. So the model isn't concerned with the reflection. Rather the model considers the mirror as a perfect and infinite container that holds things perfectly without bias. I think I'm starting to "grok in full" (if anyone is a Heinlein fan). I think I see the wisdom of the broken mirror concept too.

I love, "The depth of the drop is the height of the moon". That one line spoke a great deal to me.

Again, I thank you for your teachings. I have so much to learn.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

Hi Steve,

The equanimity and "holding all within" of the mirror is something to feel in the bones, when sitting Zazen and when out in living the rest of life encountering all the sharp and round shards of the mirror.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLah

[adahee]

So, for example, the mirror holds all within without judgement, in total non-resistance and equanimity, without separation or distinction of one thing from another ("this" and "that," me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful vs. ugly, etc.) In Zazen, one can sit within this mirror mind of equanimity and non-distinction, with all things both wholly one thing (the boundless mirror), and all things also wholly their own individual thing too shining brightly (each thing in the mirror might be said to also shine as the entire boundless mirror).

That said, our daily life must function as countless bits of shattered mirror broken into this and that, me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful and ugly together. Master Dogen observed that, even so, it is still the same mirror, with each individual shattered thing still wholly one thing (still wholly the boundless mirror) and shining as its own individual thing too (each is still fully holding the entire boundless and unbroken mirror).

For Dogen, it is not simply that we should call the former view of an unbroken mirror "wisdom," and the latter broken world as "ignorance," but we can come to see the wisdom that is always shining as and perfuming the ignorance. To see ignorance and division alone is ignorance, but to see through ignorance and division is wisdom in the guise of ignorance and division, i.e., the ignorance and division is just another face of wisdom and wholeness.

Yes that helps immensely. Thank you. So the model isn't concerned with the reflection. Rather the model considers the mirror as a perfect and infinite container that holds things perfectly without bias. I think I'm starting to "grok in full" (if anyone is a Heinlein fan). I think I see the wisdom of the broken mirror concept too.

I love, "The depth of the drop is the height of the moon". That one line spoke a great deal to me.

Again, I thank you for your teachings. I have so much to learn.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

[Jundo]

Jundo,
Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
Am I missing something?

Thanks again for your teachings.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

Hi Steve,

Most Zen wisdom is not based on an "either/or" way of encountering the world, but is more a way of knowing from simultaneously true perspective(s) (and non-perspective leaping past "perceiver" vs. "perceived" too) at once.

So, for example, the mirror holds all within without judgement, in total non-resistance and equanimity, without separation or distinction of one thing from another ("this" and "that," me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful vs. ugly, etc.) In Zazen, one can sit within this mirror mind of equanimity and non-distinction, with all things both wholly one thing (the boundless mirror), and all things also wholly their own individual thing too shining brightly (each thing in the mirror might be said to also shine as the entire boundless mirror).

That said, our daily life must function as countless bits of shattered mirror broken into this and that, me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful and ugly together. Master Dogen observed that, even so, it is still the same mirror, with each individual shattered thing still wholly one thing (still wholly the boundless mirror) and shining as its own individual thing too (each is still fully holding the entire boundless and unbroken mirror).

For Dogen, it is not simply that we should call the former view of an unbroken mirror "wisdom," and the latter broken world as "ignorance," but we can come to see the wisdom that is always shining as and perfuming the ignorance. To see ignorance and division alone is ignorance, but to see through ignorance and division is wisdom in the guise of ignorance and division, i.e., the ignorance and division is just another face of wisdom and wholeness.

I am not so concerned about this "directly experiencing reality," which is a bit of a false goal that some Zen folks misunderstand. We are always encountering the world as human beings, which means our mental experience of interpreting reality and the models of reality that we create between the ears, and are merely replacing one mental model of reality with experience of what seems a wiser one. To be human, we must live in a world divided, but we can also encounter the mental model of wholeness.

A similar image is within the famous lines of the Genjo Koan:

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

This language contrasts with another moon reference a little earlier in the Genjo in which we make the mistake as seeing the moon of "Wholeness" and the divided things of the world as separate:

When you see forms or hear sounds, fully engaging body-and-mind, you intuit dharma intimately. [It is then] unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, in which one side is illumined, but the other side is dark.

Instead, the moon is the reflection, the reflection is the moon, and the wholeness of the mirror is never separate from the reflected separate things it holds.

Let me know if that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[adahee]

Jundo,
Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
Am I missing something?

Thanks again for your teachings.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

[trafalger888]

Thank you to Jundo for this series and for the whole Sangha for their insight into the lessons.
I did #1 today with the blender. Oh my, what a great analogy. I was having this trouble even during sitting today. There are days, for whatever reason that I have times where this is an issue.

I have practiced for a while on my own with no teacher or Sangha so this experience of having these two things is a bit daunting yet refreshing all at the same time. So I am learning and well frankly relearning all at the same time. Something to be grateful for, certainly.

Gassho

Sat Today.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

[Seikan]

Just wanted to say a heartfelt "thank you" to Jundo for sharing this wonderful series of "beginner" videos. I'm looking forward to working my way through the rest of the series. Regardless of how long I've been practicing, I always find myself drawn back to the basics of Zazen. While the deeper teachings of Dogen and others certainly have their place too (and I do enjoy them), sometimes it really is as simply as just turning off the blender so that the water can become still once again, right?

And call me crazy, but I can't help but think that "Jundo's Blender" would be a great name for either a new Koan or perhaps an alternative rock band. :-)

Gassho,

Rob

--SatToday

[Bokugan]

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

Hi Luigi,

I agree -- this was a very thought provoking talk from Jundo . Thank YOU for your thoughts and for sharing that koan as well! That gave me a lot to think about.

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Luigi]

I'm watching the full Zazen for Beginners series and I particularly loved the video number 7.

When Jundo talks about the fact "we have forgotten the wisdom of the garden"—comparing our non-stop thoughts about right and wrong with the rocks and trees of his garden, it reminded of Master Dogen's koan #16 from Shinji-Shobogenzo:

A monk asks the Zen Master: "How can we make mountains, rivers, and the earth belong to ourselves?"
The Master says: "How can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth?"

According to the koan's commentary: "Mountains, rivers and the great earth are ceaselessly manifesting the teachings, yet they are not heard with the ear or seen with the eye. They can only be perceived with the whole body and mind. Be that as it may, how can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth? What is that you are calling mountains, rivers and the earth? Indeed, where do you find yourself?"

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

To get back to Jundo's video, when just sitting, we find ourselves beyond the self and also beyond perception. "Where do we find ourselves?" The answer is: in pure action.

Thanks for the thought-provoking (pun intended) videos!

Gassho,

Luigi
ST

[Jundo]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

Hi Zen (Would you mind to sign a human first name? lt makes things just a touch more human around here.)

l like to say that Zazen is about hearing the Big "S" Silence that is found ringing forth as both ordinary worldly silence AND the greatest earthly noise. There are some old Zen book that say that sound is an excellent doorway in Zazen. Do you know that the tinnitus is in your ears, but the "being disturbed" by the tinnitus is your own doing between the ears. Try to practice not being disturbed even amid usually disturbing things. Later, there is a video about Zazen in downtown Tokyo that makes much the same point.

Gassho, J

STLah

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

[Shokai]