Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

I struggle often with distracting thoughts and am working on using these tips. Right now the only thing that seems to work right away almost every time is for me to close my eyes and focus on my breath for a moment then return to seeing/not seeing with my eyes partially open. Even though this works for me, is it detrimental to my Zazen practice?

Gassho
Jd

Sat today

No, not at all. Do that for some minutes until you settle. and the thoughts grow small and translucent and just pass without bother (they do not need to totally vanish, just grow unintrusive and simple.) You can even follow the breath as it enters and exits the tip of the nose, such placing your attention there. We usually don't encourage closing the eyes, but it is okay if just for awhile if you really need.

Then, as you mature in this practice, move to open, spacious awareness with the eyes partly open.

Whenever you need to settle a bit, repeat going back and forth until you can sit in open awareness for longer periods. However, even then you may have troubled days when it is good to follow the breath or the like.

Gassho, J

SATTODAYLah

[Sachi]

Hi Sachi,

Your eyes should focus on this and that, just like when driving. It is just that you do not get tangled up with what you are seeing, getting caught in trains of thought about what is seen. Your eyes should not be out of focus nor intentionally trying to see everything at once without thinking anything at all.



Thoughts come and go, just do not get hooked on. Pay em no nevermind. Maybe you should focus on the breath as it enters and exits the nose for awhile. Just place your attention there. Thoughts will still come and go, but pretend that you are just watching them without particular concern as if you were just watching a live cam of traffic passing on the road, not getting concerned about what is happening in each car, who the driver is, where it is going, and you sure don't get in to ride!


Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you so much for the clarification on what I should be doing with my eyes. I have sat the past few days while taking your advice to heart. I don't always get sidetracked too much by wandering thoughts, but in those instances where that has happened, I was able to focus on my breath for a few moments, until I was able to let those thoughts drop away.


Gassho,
Sachi
Sat today

[Jundo]

... My eyes did return to focus somewhere midway during my sitting, but I was able to drop away from that focus after a few seconds.

Hi Sachi,

Your eyes should focus on this and that, just like when driving. It is just that you do not get tangled up with what you are seeing, getting caught in trains of thought about what is seen. Your eyes should not be out of focus nor intentionally trying to see everything at once without thinking anything at all.

One thing I noticed is that since I was less preoccupied with what I am seeing, I had a lot more random thoughts pop into my head as compared to before.

Thoughts come and go, just do not get hooked on. Pay em no nevermind. Maybe you should focus on the breath as it enters and exits the nose for awhile. Just place your attention there. Thoughts will still come and go, but pretend that you are just watching them without particular concern as if you were just watching a live cam of traffic passing on the road, not getting concerned about what is happening in each car, who the driver is, where it is going, and you sure don't get in to ride!

https://youtu.be/Od6lLKOC5Fw

Gassho, J

STLah

[Sachi]

Hi Sachi,

We have some discussions on this from time to time. Basically, the eyes are just looking and natural, like driving a car seeing the road, but without being lost in thought about what one is seeing.

I would not try to think of the wall as obstructing the sky, but just not be bothered by any of it. Let wall be wall, sky by sky, for ultimately sky and wall are not two. Sky is wall in the sky, wall is sky as a wall.

Cast your eyes here (pun intended):

Hi Jundo,

Your car driving analogy was very helpful in letting go of my focus on visual cues. Instead of visualizing ways of letting go, putting my mind in a state similar to what I recall from driving my car seems to immediately let me get away from thoughts about what I am seeing. My eyes did return to focus somewhere midway during my sitting, but I was able to drop away from that focus after a few seconds.

One thing I noticed is that since I was less preoccupied with what I am seeing, I had a lot more random thoughts pop into my head as compared to before. Also, I do two sittings per day, once in the morning, and another at night, and I noted that I am much more prone to wandering into thoughts/tangents during my evening sessions.

Thank you,
Sachi
Sat today

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo for these wonderful videos. I have completed the last beginner's lesson today, and I am sure I will go back to each of them again to see if I can gain new insights.

A thing that has been on my mind is how to properly set the focus of my eyes. I would always find myself staring down at 45 degrees and focusing too hard at the wall in front of me. Would that be similar to focusing on one's breath, and I should try not to do it? One thing I did do today was visualize myself looking at the blue sky with my "inner" eyes and think of the view of the wall in front of me as if it was a fog obstructing the sky. I was able to gradually drop my focus away from the wall in this way.

I very much enjoy my practice thus far, and thank you all for helping us along.

Gassho,
Sachi
Sat

Hi Sachi,

We have some discussions on this from time to time. Basically, the eyes are just looking and natural, like driving a car seeing the road, but without being lost in thought about what one is seeing.

I would not try to think of the wall as obstructing the sky, but just not be bothered by any of it. Let wall be wall, sky by sky, for ultimately sky and wall are not two. Sky is wall in the sky, wall is sky as a wall.

Cast your eyes here (pun intended):

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18529-Sitting-with-eyes-open&p=280418&viewfull=1#post280418

also:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17464-SPLIT-THREAD-EYE-to-EYE&p=250886&viewfull=1#post250886

and:

Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16743-Drivin-Dogen-Understanding-Open-Spacious-Awareness

Please report back if you see what we are getting at.

Gassho, J

STLah

https://youtu.be/4qw5ma4rfIw

[Sachi]

Thank you Jundo for these wonderful videos. I have completed the last beginner's lesson today, and I am sure I will go back to each of them again to see if I can gain new insights.

A thing that has been on my mind is how to properly set the focus of my eyes. I would always find myself staring down at 45 degrees and focusing too hard at the wall in front of me. Would that be similar to focusing on one's breath, and I should try not to do it? One thing I did do today was visualize myself looking at the blue sky with my "inner" eyes and think of the view of the wall in front of me as if it was a fog obstructing the sky. I was able to gradually drop my focus away from the wall in this way.

I very much enjoy my practice thus far, and thank you all for helping us along.

Gassho,
Sachi
Sat

[Jundo]

... The thoughts are part of what is, so I leave them be, like with the mirror.

[Kaisui]

Don't try to shift from thoughts, nor run toward thoughts and grab on while getting tangled in them. Just leave them be without wallowing in them.

Thank you, that was very helpful for me when sitting this morning. The thoughts are part of what is, so I leave them be, like with the mirror.

Gassho,
Charity
sat today

[Jundo]

I too am enjoying these sit-a-long videos, I'm up to about video 12 at the moment. I keep coming back to video 5, 'the goal is in each step' - I love that. I've reminded myself of it a few times while sitting and found it helpful... although, I find it tricky to balance the idea of a reminder thought being helpful while I am shifting my focus away from thoughts.

Gassho, Charity
sat today

Don't try to shift from thoughts, nor run toward thoughts and grab on while getting tangled in them. Just leave them be without wallowing in them.

It is fine to remind yourself of "just this place" from time to time too, then let that thought go as well.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kaisui]

I too am enjoying these sit-a-long videos, I'm up to about video 12 at the moment. I keep coming back to video 5, 'the goal is in each step' - I love that. I've reminded myself of it a few times while sitting and found it helpful... although, I find it tricky to balance the idea of a reminder thought being helpful while I am shifting my focus away from thoughts.

Gassho, Charity
sat today

[Meishin]

Thank you, Jundo. This is the third time I've done this series since coming to Treeleaf in 2014. Each time is deeper. Please allow me to encourage other perpetual beginners to drop by.

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[John.3]

I just finished this series, thank you Jundo for the incredibly helpful, accessible and practical content! I was particularly struck by the Mirror mind talk, video number 10. I am very interested in practicing cultivating this type of mind.

Gassho,
John
Sat today

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

[Tomás ESP]

Just finished this series. What a wonderful gift: Simplicity, wisdom and comedy, all in one. Very helfpul, thank you Jundo. I will continue with the Bodhisattva basics.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Bokugan]

I just wanted to share that two of the books recommended by Jundo really helped me shape a comfortable way to sit. Over three sentences here, but feel it is okay in this case

The Posture of Meditation by Will Johnson

This helped me understand the importance of alignment/relaxation/resilience (as the author breaks it down in the book). Specifically, feeling the pull of gravity on my posture and working with that to benefit my comfort so that I am not distracted by discomfort as much. Here, I feel that posture is absolutely what ever works best for an individual, so no matter if one has to recline, use a chair, is lucky enough to sit in a lotus variation, etc. --- I feel like this is a great book for all.

Opening the Hand of Thought by Kōshō Uchiyama

Among so many other things, this text helped me to learn how to handle a wandering mind. In it, he mentions returning to the posture/entrusting everything to the posture, which is how I think these two books work so well together. I take this to be: take a moment and reflect on what I learned from The Posture of Meditation at the beginning and during when I catch myself drifting. When my mind is wandering, I notice that my posture has often shifted, tensed up, or I'm leaning out of my center. I adjust ever so slightly, let go of the hand of thought, the rinse and repeat.

Anyway, I know these are already recommended highly in the Sangha, but I wanted to share from one who is a beginner (always a beginner) to others finding their way to shikantaza that these two books work very well together.

Gassho,

Ryan s
Sat Today

[Jundo]

I am not able to relocate the thread for Zendo do and don't during Zazenkai. Please advise. Thanks.

Gassho,
Judy
sat

Here they are Judy, both videos ... (Oh, and not a "wrong," but would you mind to put a human face photo to accompany your posts? It helps us look each other in the eye a bit here. Thank you. Here is how: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...n-Avatar-Photo )

PS - There is no "wrong" or "right" in Zazen ... yet here is a little explanation of the "right" times to Bow (A Koan) ...

Chant Book is here for those who wish to join in: CHANT BOOK LINK

The other video I mention on Zendo decorum is this one, from our "Always Beginners" video Series:

Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12) - Basic Zendo Decorum At Home
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...093#post189093