Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Bokugan]

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

Hi Luigi,

I agree -- this was a very thought provoking talk from Jundo . Thank YOU for your thoughts and for sharing that koan as well! That gave me a lot to think about.

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Luigi]

I'm watching the full Zazen for Beginners series and I particularly loved the video number 7.

When Jundo talks about the fact "we have forgotten the wisdom of the garden"—comparing our non-stop thoughts about right and wrong with the rocks and trees of his garden, it reminded of Master Dogen's koan #16 from Shinji-Shobogenzo:

A monk asks the Zen Master: "How can we make mountains, rivers, and the earth belong to ourselves?"
The Master says: "How can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth?"

According to the koan's commentary: "Mountains, rivers and the great earth are ceaselessly manifesting the teachings, yet they are not heard with the ear or seen with the eye. They can only be perceived with the whole body and mind. Be that as it may, how can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth? What is that you are calling mountains, rivers and the earth? Indeed, where do you find yourself?"

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

To get back to Jundo's video, when just sitting, we find ourselves beyond the self and also beyond perception. "Where do we find ourselves?" The answer is: in pure action.

Thanks for the thought-provoking (pun intended) videos!

Gassho,

Luigi
ST

[Jundo]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

Hi Zen (Would you mind to sign a human first name? lt makes things just a touch more human around here.)

l like to say that Zazen is about hearing the Big "S" Silence that is found ringing forth as both ordinary worldly silence AND the greatest earthly noise. There are some old Zen book that say that sound is an excellent doorway in Zazen. Do you know that the tinnitus is in your ears, but the "being disturbed" by the tinnitus is your own doing between the ears. Try to practice not being disturbed even amid usually disturbing things. Later, there is a video about Zazen in downtown Tokyo that makes much the same point.

Gassho, J

STLah

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

[Shokai]

[Meian]

If not for Treeleaf I would not be practicing at all.

Due to certain issues, I am unable to straighten my spine, nor am I able to hold certain postures for lengths of time without severe pain or lingering side effects.

Here, I don't have to - I sit or recline in a way that minimizes problems while fulfilling the intent and purpose of shikantaza.

And sometimes, when the pain is there no matter what, I sit with that also and let things be as they are.

Gassho
Meian
St lh

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[Yokai]

Listened to Zazen for Beginners 1. Incisive. My head is full of blenders! Many thanks Jundo. Gasho Chris - sat today -

[bayamo]

Aw geez how this bugs me. For all me years sitting, watching paint dry (actually now it's tiles, my wall has tiles), I've never been able to shake the "is my back straight?", and always check my shadow on the wall.
#sattoday

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[Bokugan]

Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Hi Jishin,

I'm certainly one to overthink things, and can totally see where I might be working too hard to be in what I have in my head as an "authentic" posture. Thank you for this -- I think I needed a reminder/reinforcement that the whole idea is quite simple: "just sit"

I'll be sure to keep this in mind as I settle in next time.

Gassho,
Ryan

Sat Today

[Bokugan]

Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture. This book is highly recommended for finding the posture(s) for you (plural, because the body is actually a bit fluid in sitting).

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

However, I was just think to ask folks to post some pictures in another thread. You may want to do so so that I can take a look.

Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo,

I added the book to my list, I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks!

I'll see about posting a picture sometime if you kick a thread up for that. I really appreciate how the focus is on being comfortable, and that this fact is brought up repeatedly in the intro video. I need to keep that my focus when it comes to posture.

Short update -- I did experiment more this morning, removed a full cup of the buckwheat hulls (boy did I nearly make a mess there!) and my session was better. I definitely think the zafu height is part of it.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Tai Shi]

Thank you Jundo—think I’ll loop my mantra to simple breath counting then punctuate with The a Serenity Prayer.
Tai Sho
sat/ lah
Gassho


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[Jundo]

Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


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Do not ignore the situation, but do as you can not to run toward the situation or become tangled in thoughts about it.

If you need (and it sounds like you may), sit focused on following the breath or counting the breath. If you need something stronger, I may even recommend a mantra (you can make your own, Tai Shi, that speaks to your heart and let me know. Perhaps something with your Christian faith would be fine.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tai Shi]

Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
Tai Shi
sat
Gassho


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[drew]

It had another effect too. At work, there is somebody that was thrown on our team during a re-org who irritates everybody. Strongly suspect narcissistic issues. Today there was an IM thread complaining about and disparaging that person. I started to type my own comment and then thought. "There is much suffering that causes him to act this way" I will feel compassion and will not say anything disparaging.


A small thing but a shift in thoughts and actions.

Gassho, drew
Sat

[Jishin]

[emoji3]