Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

Hi all,

I struggle with dullness especially these days. To deal with it I have started turning to these Contemplations by Atisha I found here. Ever so often, during sittings or walking, when I find myself slipping into dullness, I would briefly just reiterate one or so points from these contemplations. Sometimes it helps to liven me up a bit, other times, it can be somewhat agitating.

Please advise if contemplations on death should be done during sittings or kinhin, or should they be done separately, such as at the start of sittings or as a separate practise altogether.

Also, some tips on promoting wakefulnes/keeping up motivation to practise in general would help.

Thanks a lot guys.

newby/Sat

Hello,

In our tradition we don't contemplate on such matters, when sitting just sit and be engaged/present with life as it is, as it is unfolding.

Why contemplate on death when you are alive and here? When we fixate our mind or attention on a single point we cannot see life, we can only see that single point of fixation. Again just be present with the wholeness, the completeness of life. If you find yourself being dull or lazy during zazen or kinhin, recognized that, acknowledge it, and come back to being present with the whole completeness of this life.

To keep up practice really is to just practice ... to dedicate yourself to zazen. The more you do this, the easier sitting becomes. But even when sitting is not so easy, just sit. Know in your heart and mind the benefit zazen has for both you and the world around you.

Hope this helps. =)

Gasho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[newby_x86]

Hi all,

I struggle with dullness especially these days. To deal with it I have started turning to these Contemplations by Atisha I found here. Ever so often, during sittings or walking, when I find myself slipping into dullness, I would briefly just reiterate one or so points from these contemplations. Sometimes it helps to liven me up a bit, other times, it can be somewhat agitating.

Please advise if contemplations on death should be done during sittings or kinhin, or should they be done separately, such as at the start of sittings or as a separate practise altogether.

Also, some tips on promoting wakefulnes/keeping up motivation to practise in general would help.

Thanks a lot guys.

newby/Sat

[newby_x86]

Hi Jundo, thanks for the reply.

In the past, and even off and on (on bad days), the temptation for escapism has been there, I must confess. (no different than tuning out to drinking for instance, or anything else on a bad day). Naturally, it has always led to despair in the past. I guess I'm more aware of it now instead, try to be anyway. And that is not at all my intention from this practise. It may be a while before I really get it in my bones.

Edit - I forgot to mention, the breathing exercise I take up helps with the sittings. I steer clear of the more overt forms or forceful breath retention exercises. I should hope that is fine.


newby/Sat

[Jundo]

Hello all,

Just wanted to run this by you guys. I do a short round of mantra recitation or some pranayama breathing exercises right before sittings at times. Is this something yall would recommend I keep up so long as it helps with the sittings. Looking for opinions really.


newby/Sat

Hi Anant,

We don't tend to emphasize special breathing exercises in Soto Zen, where Master Dogen's advice was to let the long breaths be long, the short breaths be short, and just breathe naturally (apart from three deep breaths at the start of Zazen):

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14885-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2811%29&p=189094#post189094

Also, although there are some Dharani and Mantra common in Soto Zen, such as the Daihishin (Nīlakaṇṭha/Great Compassion Dhāraṇī) and the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo (The Dharani for Preventing Disaster) ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%ABlaka%E1%B9%87%E1%B9%ADha_Dh%C4%81ra%E1%B9%87%C4%AB

https://redcedarzen.org/Sho-Sai-Myo-Kichijo-Dharani

... I do not include them in our Rituals and Ceremonies here at Treeleaf because of my view that they were originally, and primarily, used as something like magic spells, "abracadabra". You can read more of my skepticism here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15129-Daily-Prayer-Practice&p=194904&viewfull=1#post194904

That is just my view, and I know that others can find great power there. If you feel that it helps you settle, then please do what feels right. For me, it is not much different from singing "Happy Birthday" before Zazen if it helps you. If it helps you settle for Zazen, then sing so.

However, in doing so, do you truly understand the radical power of Shikantaza as non-gaining, not intentionally seeking any special state, or are you hoping to induce some special or unusual state of mind? That is another question.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[newby_x86]

Hello all,

Just wanted to run this by you guys. I do a short round of mantra recitation or some pranayama breathing exercises right before sittings at times. Is this something yall would recommend I keep up so long as it helps with the sittings. Looking for opinions really.


newby/Sat

[Ramsey]

Quick update: Raising my hands on a cushion on my lap made a huge difference. Thanks!

[Ramsey]

I knew there was a good mudra thread around somewhere, so I searched around and found it. There was also one just last week from someone else having trouble with it!

http://https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13894-Is-the-cosmic-mudra-important

Hope this helps!

You are a very cute Schnauzer, btw.

Thank you, Jakuden, and woof!
Gave me some ideas to work with. I will try placing a support under my hands because I wonder if supporting them will change the angle/amount of thumb extension required. I also have some injuries in wrists & elbows and perhaps that is contributing to the discomfort of keeping thumbs in position.

And thank you as well, Jundo and Ryudo! I just saw your thoughtful replies.

[Ryudo]

I have a question about the mudra. I'm new to shikantaza practice (though not new to a regular meditation practice) and the mudra is new to me - and uncomfortable. Maybe I have oddly shaped thumb-tips? Even with very short nails, the fleshy part of my thumb tips do not touch each other and one nail edge slides under the other nail edge. It's distracting and uncomfortable. I have to tent my thumbs to get flesh-on-flesh. I have been sitting with this and observing it (I'm only on day 4 of the series). But I wondered if others have experienced this? Or am I holding my hands wrong?

Hi Ramsey,
Try relaxing the hand/wrist more, so that the knuckles of your fingers are realy facing down (see picture that Jundo posted) and not forward (as this might be the problem).

Gassho
Ryundo
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

I have a question about the mudra. I'm new to shikantaza practice (though not new to a regular meditation practice) and the mudra is new to me - and uncomfortable. Maybe I have oddly shaped thumb-tips? Even with very short nails, the fleshy part of my thumb tips do not touch each other and one nail edge slides under the other nail edge. It's distracting and uncomfortable. I have to tent my thumbs to get flesh-on-flesh. I have been sitting with this and observing it (I'm only on day 4 of the series). But I wondered if others have experienced this? Or am I holding my hands wrong?

Hi Ramsey,

Yes, so interesting to have two Mudra questions back to back! Folks rarely have problems.

The nails should not slide into each other. Yes, "tent" the fingers, but very slightly, lightly and comfortable. No forcing, not too much pressure. It should be a "do it, and then forget about it" pose, very easy.



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

I have a question about the mudra. I'm new to shikantaza practice (though not new to a regular meditation practice) and the mudra is new to me - and uncomfortable. Maybe I have oddly shaped thumb-tips? Even with very short nails, the fleshy part of my thumb tips do not touch each other and one nail edge slides under the other nail edge. It's distracting and uncomfortable. I have to tent my thumbs to get flesh-on-flesh. I have been sitting with this and observing it (I'm only on day 4 of the series). But I wondered if others have experienced this? Or am I holding my hands wrong?

Hi Ramsey!

I knew there was a good mudra thread around somewhere, so I searched around and found it. There was also one just last week from someone else having trouble with it!

http://https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13894-Is-the-cosmic-mudra-important

Hope this helps!

You are a very cute Schnauzer, btw.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Ramsey]

I have a question about the mudra. I'm new to shikantaza practice (though not new to a regular meditation practice) and the mudra is new to me - and uncomfortable. Maybe I have oddly shaped thumb-tips? Even with very short nails, the fleshy part of my thumb tips do not touch each other and one nail edge slides under the other nail edge. It's distracting and uncomfortable. I have to tent my thumbs to get flesh-on-flesh. I have been sitting with this and observing it (I'm only on day 4 of the series). But I wondered if others have experienced this? Or am I holding my hands wrong?

[Shinshi]

There is a lot of great information about studying the precepts in the thread announcing the last Jukai.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15565-ANNOUNCEMENT-It-s-JUKAI-TIME-2017%21

Treeleaf uses the book "The Mind of Clover" by Robert Aitken.

In the forum JUKAI, PRECEPTS STUDY & SEWING FORUM (Oryoki & Tonglen Too!)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?57-JUKAI-PRECEPTS-STUDY-SEWING-FORUM-%28Oryoki-Tonglen-Too%21%29

You can find threads that touch on each precept. Those threads contain links to additional readings.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Cheyenne]

thank you. could you give me how to study the precepts. Is there a certain way? is there a good book on this?

[Amelia]

Jukai study takes place beginning around August and September, and the ceremony is in January. Feel free to study the precepts if you like until then! Keep up the sitting.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Cheyenne]

Ending of beginners lessons.

Jundo, thank you so much for the beginner series. I have just completed number 22. I am sitting for 20 min a day. Working up to thirty next week. I would like to have a joki with you. When may I do that? Where should be my next lesson?