Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Sekiyuu]

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

As far as I can tell, yes! I try to envision a rope pulling my head up directly above and the rest of my body following suit, then relaxing the rest of my body as if it were "hanging" off of my now-straightened spine. I of course also do the rocking back and forth to make sure that "up" is actually up. Once in awhile I notice I am slouching a little and correct it, but it never feels like a major adjustment. Even then, I could be doing something a little wrong, like leaning forward or back unintentionally or my spine not actually really being straight despite it feeling like it is.

Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today

Hmmm, hard to say then. It might be that, as if one sloaches it can interfer with the abdomen.

Maybe try and experiment and keep an eye on your shoulders. Once you move from side to side to find your alignment, roll your shoulders back, dropping your shoulder blades. This can help straighten the spine, but also open the chest. Give it a try and see if it helps with the breathe.

This again is not the normal procedure, but jist rather a test to see if your situation is related to posture. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hmmm. I would just say to be breathing from the diaphram all through Zazen. It is natural that, as one relaxes, the breaths become slower and lighter. Sometimes it seems that I might breathe less than twice a minutes.

However, are you actually then gasping for breath, and feel like you are holding your breath in a pool? Or is it only that you suddenly focus on your breath and panic or become obsessed with it a bit? If the latter, it is just your mind. If the former, it is actually a physical breath issue.

Just relax and breathe. Normal, natural breathing. You do it all day, sitting or standing, so what is different now? There should be nothing different about breathing in Zazen and just breathing while sitting, so I am not sure what could be causing this. It should be the same as breathing while on the sofa or breathing on the bus.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Sekiyuu]

As far as I can tell, yes! I try to envision a rope pulling my head up directly above and the rest of my body following suit, then relaxing the rest of my body as if it were "hanging" off of my now-straightened spine. I of course also do the rocking back and forth to make sure that "up" is actually up. Once in awhile I notice I am slouching a little and correct it, but it never feels like a major adjustment. Even then, I could be doing something a little wrong, like leaning forward or back unintentionally or my spine not actually really being straight despite it feeling like it is.

Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today

I've been sitting regularly (missing a few days) for a month now, and I'm finding I still have a bit of trouble with breathing. I reviewed the Sit-a-Long about breath (here) to help me but I think I could use a tiny bit more advice.

I keep catching myself taking such shallow breaths that I'm barely breathing at all. Ideally I should just let those breaths be short, but honestly it feels like I'd just stop breathing entirely. My body doesn't really appreciate that, so I start intentionally taking very deep breaths. Maybe it's the rush of oxygen, or endorphins or something, but it just feels so much better to breathe very deeply and slowly, but that unfortunately takes a bit of intention. Any specific advice here?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Hey Kenny,

The first thing that comes to mind is your posture ... are you keeping a natural straight spine?

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

I've been sitting regularly (missing a few days) for a month now, and I'm finding I still have a bit of trouble with breathing. I reviewed the Sit-a-Long about breath (here) to help me but I think I could use a tiny bit more advice.

I keep catching myself taking such shallow breaths that I'm barely breathing at all. Ideally I should just let those breaths be short, but honestly it feels like I'd just stop breathing entirely. My body doesn't really appreciate that, so I start intentionally taking very deep breaths. Maybe it's the rush of oxygen, or endorphins or something, but it just feels so much better to breathe very deeply and slowly, but that unfortunately takes a bit of intention. Any specific advice here?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Shinshi]

Choosing to hold your hands behind your back to eschew tradition is the same as holding your hands in the mudra to embrace tradition. No matter which, a choice is being made, thought of, mulled over, decided, questioned, etc. Choosing to simply follow the rituals whether we know what the significance is yet or not removes the questioning from the action, which I feel is the point.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[SNPII]

Many thanks for the cloud reference and seeing through them at some point in practice. I cannot say I see through them completely quite yet, but I do have an appreciation now as to the clouds and crystal clear blue luminescent sky co existing! It brings joy!

Sat2daymanyX's

In Sincerity
Shane

[Meitou]

Thanks, Jundo. I forgot to throw in that important bit!

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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Both of your posts here really resonate. Beautiful words Geika, thank you.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

Thanks, Jundo. I forgot to throw in that important bit!

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I too like this Geika, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Yep, me too.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLah

[Amelia]

Thanks, Jundo. I forgot to throw in that important bit!

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Choosing to hold your hands behind your back to eschew tradition is the same as holding your hands in the mudra to embrace tradition. No matter which, a choice is being made, thought of, mulled over, decided, questioned, etc. Choosing to simply follow the rituals whether we know what the significance is yet or not removes the questioning from the action, which I feel is the point.

Gassho, sat today, lah

I agree with this.

Unless one is being asked to jump off a high cliff, sleep with the "teacher" or do some other really harmful action, or to become a spiritual Zombie, there is great beauty in this Practice of leaving your personal preferences, likes and dislikes, at the door and just throwing oneself into an activity. It is an important part of Zen, and most Eastern religious, Practices.

(Of course, nobody will be asked that around here to do anything harmful or become a zombie, and run from any group or guru that asks that ... and there are quite a few, including a couple of Zen groups (Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano and some others) who went that bad way. We just had a discussion of two such groups):

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16066-Andrew-Cohen-Surviving-A-Cult&p=221174&viewfull=1#post221174

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Amelia]

Choosing to hold your hands behind your back to eschew tradition is the same as holding your hands in the mudra to embrace tradition. No matter which, a choice is being made, thought of, mulled over, decided, questioned, etc. Choosing to simply follow the rituals whether we know what the significance is yet or not removes the questioning from the action, which I feel is the point.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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Thanks to all! I have reached out in PM to some with personal commentary. Does anyone know of a better way to be notified about posts I’m participating and such when mobile? For now I have just been going to the my profile section and clicking on the posts it says I’ve commented on. it is also a bit challenging to utilize and stay on top of this forum on my mobile devices, but they are so much a part of my life than 5ey should be, but still a reality.

Sattoday

Shane

Hey Shane,

Yes you can. If you go into your profile on Tapatalk (see attached image), then goto "settings", then under your "push notifications" and "email notifications" yoi can set what you want to be notified about.

Let me know if this helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH