Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[dialectbird]

Hello all!
I seem to be having some troubles with using ‘Hangouts’. I’m not sure this is the correct thread to be posting this question in, but here goes.
I’ve been a member for a little while now, and manage to attend Zazenkai with my regular sangha often, but in the times in which I cannot attend, or make the drive to temple, I sit by the altar in our home. I wish to sit with this community when doing so, but have troubles with hangouts. I have noticed that there seems to be two sitting schedules on the site, one says Mon-Sunday sittings, and the other is a list that says “Zazen” with... and whoever the respective person is, I’m assuming leading the zazenkai. That being said, I’ve tried sittings from either list, and cannot see, nor hear if I’m in the right place, no bells, and either a blank screen or just myself on screen. I’ve checked the settings of the app on my phone, and it should be working properly, but this still keeps happening. Perhaps someone could help me determine what I’m doing wrong? Thank you so much.
Gassho
合掌
DB

[Amelia]

I know that you sometimes feel like a broken record, Jundo, but sometimes rereading the "Jundo Classics" will cause something to click in a way it never has before, despite having read it the same way for years. Thanks for your persistence, and patience.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Jundo]

I have now reached the fourth week of my hinderance practice where I am to focus at least one meditation for the next 7 days on: restlessness, anxiety and worry. The opposite being focus and stillness.

I am reviewing beginner's teaching #11 about the breath and not focusing on it during meditation to sit Zazen. I feel I am now open to getting a little deeper with Shikantaza Zazen now, but still find difficulty in the "just sit" aspect. I am familiar with the Samatha and vipassana meditations and less with appasati and even less with Zazen (other than what I'm learning in here).

Hi Shane,

Shikantaza is not a breath practice (apart from allowing the breath to be deep and natural). It is also a radical allowing of things as they are. One does not beat "restlessness, anxiety and worry" be trying to sweep them away, but rather by radically pay em no nevermind, not being bothered by any condition of life. I posted something else about this to explain ...

In most forms of Zazen or meditation, there is good and bad, successful and not successful sitting. In Shikantaza, it is impossible by definition to have any bad or unsuccessful sitting. Simply sitting is, ipso facto, success. Good or bad, successful or unsuccessful judgments are washed away in automatic "Good Sitting which is Successful Just By Sitting" (one possible way to translate the meaning of the word "Shikantaza" right there). Unlike most forms of meditation, that means that even those sometime days of angry, confused, cloudy, wallowing in emotions sitting is "good, successful sitting."

However (now the wondrous twist, the tricky catch!), when one truly lets each and every sitting be itself, good and successful just by being itself, there is thus something transcendent of anger, confusion, cloudiness and wallowing simply by letting "anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing" (and all conditions of life) just be "anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing" (and all conditions of life as they are). As strange as it sounds, one is thus "free" of anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing even in the continued presence of anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing, as much as in their absence too. The "anger, confusion, cloudiness and wallowing" is completely transformed in Wisdom and Clarity by our non-resistance and equanimity about even our passing feelings of resistance and lack of equanimity. So long as one is sitting, with the act of sitting as all that is demanded of the act of sitting, this is the universe in fruition.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-in-Shikantaza

We are always trying to "fix" life. The cause of the "restlessness, anxiety and worry" is precisely our dissatisfaction with the state of things, need to fix or resistance to how things are. I am not proposing to wallow in "restlessness, anxiety and worry." Rather, the radical dropping of need to fix ... including to fix anything including some passing "restlessness, anxiety and worry" ... is precisely the contentment that is the cure for "restlessness, anxiety and worry". Rather counter-intuitive, but it works.

I am not sure what a "hindrance practice" is. Shikantaza is our "no hindrances even in a world of hindrances" practice.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[SNPII]

Okay all, I haven't posted a lot in tree leaf lately because I have truly been focusing on the hinderances and my other studies and practices.

I have now reached the fourth week of my hinderance practice where I am to focus at least one meditation for the next 7 days on: restlessness, anxiety and worry. The opposite being focus and stillness.

I am reviewing beginner's teaching #11 about the breath and not focusing on it during meditation to sit Zazen. I feel I am now open to getting a little deeper with Shikantaza Zazen now, but still find difficulty in the "just sit" aspect. I am familiar with the Samatha and vipassana meditations and less with appasati and even less with Zazen (other than what I'm learning in here).

Can any of you share your journey about transitioning into Shikantaza Zazen as described in number 11 and the like?

Sat2daymaysitagain

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

I have severe Cerebral Palsy. My. body moves almost constantly. However, when I focus on my breath my body becomes still without me trying. If I try to be still, my body starts to move. If I move while doing zazen in my wheelchair I just notice it and gently return my focus to the breath.

Hi Jesse,

Good to see you.

Then, you do what works for you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

I have severe Cerebral Palsy. My. body moves almost constantly. However, when I focus on my breath my body becomes still without me trying. If I try to be still, my body starts to move. If I move while doing zazen in my wheelchair I just notice it and gently return my focus to the breath.

Hello Rising Crow, [emoji112] it is good to see you.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[RisingCrow]

I have severe Cerebral Palsy. My. body moves almost constantly. However, when I focus on my breath my body becomes still without me trying. If I try to be still, my body starts to move. If I move while doing zazen in my wheelchair I just notice it and gently return my focus to the breath.

Shingen: I sat a few times now, and I am definitely seeing benefits from lowering the shoulders and pushing them back slightly, and even more if I intentionally stick out my chest a little bit. I still take very shallow breaths when I'm not paying attention, but I never get the sensation that I'm running out of air. Thanks for the tip!

Jundo:

That actually sounds pretty sensible to me, so I'm wondering why it's the case! I am still a bit perplexed by the shallow breaths, so I guess I'm relaxing just a bit too much? I can try focusing on my breath a bit more, or "everything and nothing in particular" / "the clear blue sky", which might bring me just enough "presence" to keep my breath a bit more natural and not so shallow. I'll sit on that a bit longer, it could be that I'm just overthinking the shallow breathing and it's not actually getting in the way of anything.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Hey Kenny,

Excellent, I am happy to hear it is providing some help. As Jundo has also mentioned, just find a nice balance of being present with the breath and the posture. Try not to focus too much, but just enough so that you can stay engaged and find that natural place. Keep at it. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

Shingen: I sat a few times now, and I am definitely seeing benefits from lowering the shoulders and pushing them back slightly, and even more if I intentionally stick out my chest a little bit. I still take very shallow breaths when I'm not paying attention, but I never get the sensation that I'm running out of air. Thanks for the tip!

Jundo:

It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it.

That actually sounds pretty sensible to me, so I'm wondering why it's the case! I am still a bit perplexed by the shallow breaths, so I guess I'm relaxing just a bit too much? I can try focusing on my breath a bit more, or "everything and nothing in particular" / "the clear blue sky", which might bring me just enough "presence" to keep my breath a bit more natural and not so shallow. I'll sit on that a bit longer, it could be that I'm just overthinking the shallow breathing and it's not actually getting in the way of anything.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

I'm gonna stay with the agreement that maybe I am latching onto this more than I should.

Maybe I should just enjoy the calmness I'm not so used to experiencing more and sit with that.[emoji6]

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

Yes, in Shikantaza we are not searching for something or chasing a curtain state or mind or being.

Calmness is not the only condition that can arise in zazen, other conditions can arise as well. However, in zazen all is whole and complete regardless of what condition maybe present. One state of mind or being is not better or worse then the other. Being open and accpeting of all conditions of life allows allow for moments of kensho to arise naturally. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[SNPII]

I have never heard of anyone becoming so slow in breathing during Shikantaza as to actually become oxygen deprived, let alone pass out or do some damage. There may be Indian and other forms of intense meditation where something like that could happen, but Shikantaza is so ordinary and gentle ... I can't imagine. The body would really let you know ... by gasping, by headache or light headedness, feeling like fainting ... if you truly were becoming oxygen deprived. You should just be breathing like you are sitting on the bus looking out the window at passing scenery, i.e., normally.

It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it. However, if there really are some physical symptoms of oxygen deprivation, that is a different story.

The only other thing I can think of (and I am reaching here) is someone who suffers from sleep apnea. That should be checked by a doctor if you think it a possibility. I am finding some small amount of discussion online of that (and, in fact, meditation seems to be commonly used as a treatment for apnea, although I do not know a lot about it). This fellow is discussing what seems to be an intense form of Kundalini meditation ...



In the case of anything like that, talk to your doctor! However, Shikantaza is very far from any kind of intense meditation like that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

I'm gonna stay with the agreement that maybe I am latching onto this more than I should.

Maybe I should just enjoy the calmness I'm not so used to experiencing more and sit with that.[emoji6]

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

Kenny! Thanks for bringing this up! I often have the same experience when sitting. My respirations seem to become so calm I am almost startled and wondering if I'm getting enough oxygen.

I work in healthcare and monitor things like this on a regular basis. I have not counted my own respirations while meditating as it is a very innacurate thing to do and would defeat the purpose of sitting.

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

I have never heard of anyone becoming so slow in breathing during Shikantaza as to actually become oxygen deprived, let alone pass out or do some damage. There may be Indian and other forms of intense meditation where something like that could happen, but Shikantaza is so ordinary and gentle ... I can't imagine. The body would really let you know ... by gasping, by headache or light headedness, feeling like fainting ... if you truly were becoming oxygen deprived. You should just be breathing like you are sitting on the bus looking out the window at passing scenery, i.e., normally.

It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it. However, if there really are some physical symptoms of oxygen deprivation, that is a different story.

The only other thing I can think of (and I am reaching here) is someone who suffers from sleep apnea. That should be checked by a doctor if you think it a possibility. I am finding some small amount of discussion online of that (and, in fact, meditation seems to be commonly used as a treatment for apnea, although I do not know a lot about it). This fellow is discussing what seems to be an intense form of Kundalini meditation ...

The other cause is called “central,” in which the cessation of breathing is caused because the brain doesn’t to send the message to breathe. As far as I know, when the oxygen-carbon dioxide balance gets bad enough, the brain eventually restarts the breathing. Talk to your doctor.

I had been meditating for years with no difficulties even though having both obstructive and central sleep apnea, fortunately mild. I had never heard of kundalini in either the Shaivist or Thelemite forms, so when its physical symptoms started while in meditation one day, I was startled and stopped the process. Once started, Kundalini never stops, and sometimes takes years to complete because it seems to involve a complete rebuilding of the autonomic nervous system.

...

My doctor was of no help. He sent me to a specialist who refused to listen to my symptoms, and to another who simply dismissed them. Eventually two doctors diagnosed it as atrial fibrillation, but it was anomalous because the shaking happened only when I was asleep, and by the time I awoke enough to start a recording device the shaking stopped. I could stop the shaking by taking 20 deep breaths, by massaging my carotid artery (not a good idea, because it could dislodge plaque which might cause a stroke) or by taking a deep breath and “bearing down” this latter is a known technique called the Valsalva maneuver.

The symptoms have abated over time, and their severity has lessened to a moderate shaking which no longer upsets me. It happens now about three times a week. My current doctors insist that it’s not atrial fib, but have given me no other diagnosis. Otherwise I’m fine. I meditate now only while sitting up so that my relaxed jaw does not obstruct my airways. And yoga Nidra? Forget it!

So, if you snore, and especially if you stop breathing while you sleep, I suggest that you be most careful in your meditations, and do not attempt yoga Nidra.

https://tedmacgillivray.com/2012/09/...eally-careful/

In the case of anything like that, talk to your doctor! However, Shikantaza is very far from any kind of intense meditation like that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

[SNPII]

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Kenny! Thanks for bringing this up! I often have the same experience when sitting. My respirations seem to become so calm I am almost startled and wondering if I'm getting enough oxygen.

I work in healthcare and monitor things like this on a regular basis. I have not counted my own respirations while meditating as it is a very innacurate thing to do and would defeat the purpose of sitting.

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

Yes, just sit like you are on the bus watching the scenery out the window. Nothing strange should happen to the breath.

Gassho, J

STLAH

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Ahh, but in zazen we are neither like a monkey or like a sloth ... even though we are calm and still, we are still engaged with our body, still engaged with our breath. So try not to be ridge like a stick or loose like a ramen noodle. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH