Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Hoyu]

Evening sit after watching A SERIES OF TALKS FOR NEW FOLKS #2
Ouch!

[Jundo]

Gassho!
In the observation of respiration, particularly in the Hara area, it is the movement of the muscles of the lower abdomen that must be contemplated and not the breathing as such, this is the
correct consideration of how to observe the breath ?.
Thanks for your kindness.
Gassho.
Francisco

Hi Francisco,

I would say that nothing should be contemplated. Generally, following the breath is a temporary measure in Soto Zen (I will explain below), but good for beginners to settle down a little by sensing the air enter and leave the nostrils. One should just be lightly aware.

Eventually, in Shikantaza, one should move to "Open Spacious Awareness" not focused on the breath or anything particular at all.

As to Dogen, all he advises (in Fukanzazengi and elsewhere) is to "take a breath and exhale fully", and then turn to "thinking not thinking non thinking". In a section of Eihei Kokoru he is extremely and explicitely critical of breath counting or following (p 114 here https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...nayana&f=false ), calling it a "Hinayana" practice. He also is not too keen on the "Mahayana" way of breathing from the Hara either, seeming to say "long breaths are long, short are short" not coming or going to anywhere. In my opinion, modern teachers who instruct in counting breath might be helping newcomers get settled a bit (I tell newcomers to follow the breath for awhile or when the head is really running wild), but if they leave students doing so for years,or leave them with the impression that such calming is the point of Shikantaza, they are doing them a disservice. That IS NOT Shikantaza. I am not sure where the breath counting was reintroduced historically, but it is not really introducing students to the power of Shikantaza.

also point you to Keizan in Zazen yojinki, who does seem to recommend some breath following in limited uses, especially for particularly unsettled times .... "Sometimes [in Zazen] your body may feel hot or cold, rough or smooth, stiff or loose, heavy or light, or astonishingly wide-awake. Such sensations are caused by a disharmony of mind and breath. You should regulate your breathing as follows: open your mouth for a little while, letting long breaths be long and short breaths be short, and harmonize it gradually. Follow your breath for a while; when awareness comes, your breathing will be naturally harmonized. After that, breathe naturally through your nose" and "[At ordinary times:] Place the tongue on the palate and breathe through the nose. The mouth should be closed. The eyes should be open but not too wide nor too slight. Harmonizing the body in this way, breathe deeply with the mouth once or twice. Sitting steadily, sway the torso seven or eight times in decreasing movements. Sit straight and alert. Now think of what is without thought. How can you think of it? Be non-thinking. This is the essence of zazen."

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Francisco Toro]

Dear All,

Kindly post all comments, questions, impressions and objections regarding this Series and any of the videos in this thread. (I have had to do so to keep the lessons in sequence).

If refrencing a particular talk, it woud be nice to mention which one. Thank you so much.

BACK TO SERIES LINK

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Gassho!
In the observation of respiration, particularly in the Hara area, it is the movement of the muscles of the lower abdomen that must be contemplated and not the breathing as such, this is the
correct consideration of how to observe the breath ?.
Thanks for your kindness.
Gassho.
Francisco

[Seishin]

Jundo Roshi

Tomorrow marks a year from when I applied and was accepted to join this wonderful Sangha. I have just gone through the Beginners lessons again for probably the fourth or fifth time today to see if I have actually learnt anything in the last year. Thought I would take the opportunity to thank you for your teaching and guidance. And to thank those Sangha members who have also provided guidance, support and friendship on my journey along this long trodden path.

I realize I still have much to learn and to some degree am still the miserable, short tempered, often angry, SOB I've always been, between bouts of normality and friendliness, acting the fool to the amusement of others but finally recognizing these failings.

I have sat daily since being accepted here, missing only one day (Sept 19 last year which felt very strange and does even now) and this practice has become an integral part of my life. Still not sure about committing 100% and undertaking Jukai but am happy where I am right now, moment by moment.

Thought this was appropriate....................

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiN54y8zf_VAhWIBcAKHUKFDHwQ3ywIKjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DAWtCittJyr0&usg=AFQjCNGUvvYKhAxmysX5mPTAAVnscg1_6w

Deep bows my esteemed Roshi. Safe journey home.

STMIZ lah

[Iammichael]

Hi Jundo, Thanks you for these talks. Number 7 was specially important for me. I have been sitting zazen for ten years and your explanation of how thoughts become light, thinking/no thinking is encouraging to me. This is sometimes my experience. Thank you, Michael

[Margherita]

Thanks for your answer. I would like to clarify that of course safety comes first, to injure someone (or worst) is my fear since I started this job. So I try my best not to do something stupid (and I've seen lots of unbelievable behaviours on the road), I just thought that to not lose myself into my own tangled thoughts would have been a good thing. I will follow your advice though, Jundo.

Gassho,
Mags
Sat today

Inviato dal mio SM-J510FN utilizzando Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hello everybody,
I have a question regarding video number 13.
"Insta-Zazen" it's a thing I've been trying to do (it came out quite naturally really, even before watching Jundo's video), with some success in certain occasions and no success at all at other times. It won't work too well if I'm nervous or angry. But I discovered that being a bus driver I sit for long hours, so I try to concentrate on the breathing and then expand my concentration all around me, focusing on the driving of course. I find myself to be more attentive and if tangled thoughts arrive I try to let them go. Of course I won't drive crossed legged (but the thought made me laugh) and I won't do any Mudra with my hands, they can stay on the steering wheel!
My question for you more experienced people is: do you think it is safe to do so?

Thanks,
Mags

Sounds lovely but, whatever you do, road safety comes first. Keep your eyes on the road, watch the other cars, drive safely. I don't mix my Zazen with heavy machinery!

Maybe you could limit the practice to the time passengers are loading and getting off only? Door open, mind open. Door closed, back to the road. Passenger yells at you or is drunk ... mind VERY open.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Kyousui]

I like to do "car zen" on long drives too, first it helps me focus on my driving (which is where my focus should be). Sending Metta to the other drivers also helps with my mindfullness.

Sat2day

[Margherita]

Hello everybody,
I have a question regarding video number 13.
"Insta-Zazen" it's a thing I've been trying to do (it came out quite naturally really, even before watching Jundo's video), with some success in certain occasions and no success at all at other times. It won't work too well if I'm nervous or angry. But I discovered that being a bus driver I sit for long hours, so I try to concentrate on the breathing and then expand my concentration all around me, focusing on the driving of course. I find myself to be more attentive and if tangled thoughts arrive I try to let them go. Of course I won't drive crossed legged (but the thought made me laugh) and I won't do any Mudra with my hands, they can stay on the steering wheel!
My question for you more experienced people is: do you think it is safe to do so?

Thanks,
Mags

[Shinshou]

In video four, you say shikantaza is the simplest form of meditation. I agree that it is simple, but is it the easiest? It seems to me that due to the nature of the mind, it's easier to have a focus, a goal. Perhaps an open awareness non-duality is the eventual end – or beginning – of all meditation, but beginning with the end seems like a very difficult endeavor, like a beginning runner starting training for a marathon by running 26 miles.

Sat today

[Tai Shi]

A very, very important warning, and word to the wise!

For my medications--I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN COMPLIANT with excellent doctors over the full duration of my treatment for pain! A person must never, ever try to treat themselves with any medication of any kind! I am under the care of two excellent doctors for opiates an ALL MY MEDICATIONS, so never, ever take ANY drug without full cooperation with excellent doctors! I have severe arthritis of the spine, called Ankylosing Spondylitis, and I have experienced pain levels of 8, 9, and 10. These doctors began treating me three years back, and have followed my case to the letter as I have been fully compliant! My doctors and I have been able to bring opiates down by 3/4 less, and now I am treated with two non-opiate medications. When I say we will bring down another notch, this means I will be on 4/5 less the amount I was on at one time, and the hope is that with safe medications we can come to nearly none. I have used ALL types of meditations, and mind body exercises with the help of a great psychologist. Shikantaza has helped me gain a wonderful outlook on my life, so with ALL tools and under the care of wonderful professionals I live with pain levels of 4, 5, and 6. NEVER EVER EXPERIMENT WITH SELF CARE! THIS IS AGAINST OUR PRECEPTS in our Zen practice.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho
Deep Bows

[Tai Shi]

Hi ALL, Yes I am not my pain, and even on two non-narcotics, and at the real minimum, might go one more notch down, which I think I can handle, and really joyous that my mind is now so clear, and my wife says I'm somewhat better so keep working on the psychology of my situation, yes I AM NOT MY PAIN, and I use it as a tool in practice, to just forget sensations, great.

Now about timers, I've never used one in personal sitting, and I use some of our chants and bowing, but at first I checked and watched the clock, Truly even with my Treeleaf, almost three years, total I've been sitting 6 years. So watching the clocked has dropped away, and now naturally, 30 to 40 minutes seems so short a time as i emerge from sitting naturally. I often sit with Priests, great practice, and I sit alone or with a friend with a timer. Still sitting seems so short, and yet I know that those with a family must practice with 15 minutes here and there. At first my sitting was exactly this, 15 minutes, or even 10. So really do not worry about distractions, and with time and practice, timers might drop away and 15 minutes might feel just right. Be patient with yourselves, and keep sitting.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Oukan]

Thank you Jundo,

I watched these last year but I think that after you reorganized them and changed the format a little they are much easier to follow. Time to watch again.

Gassho

Oukan.

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo, for this series of talks. I just went through them, I think for the second time, although I didn't remember some of them at all. They are encouraging.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[RobotUnicorn]

That's really interesting, thank you Jundo and James for a really interesting discussion.

And yes, that's a really good point, Jundo, about not always chasing after feeling peaceful. That's a trap I fall into often, and then a whole slew of judgements against myself rise up when I can't quite see the peace behind the turmoil, either on or off the cushion (or seiza bench, in my case). Ah well, all the more reason to continue practicing!

Gassho,
Georgina

SatToday