SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

I am sorry, this is another misunderstanding.
I was indeed talking about chasing a single big boom satori experience.
Kodo Sawaki mostly spoke about practice-enlightenment, but used for both the expression satori.

So IMHO our practice is not about the goal of achieving a big satori experience (although having one is not bad and neither to belittled nor to be raised on a pedestal). As you have said several times, it is like hiking and coming across a beautiful scenery. But then it's time to move on.

I referred to Kodo Sawaki, because in my opinion he explains the concept of practice-enlightenment (i.e. the actualizing of Buddha-nature when we sit or in other activities) in an excellent way. And practice-enlightenment is the thing that is at the core of our Soto tradition IMHO.
Using the expression Satori for both a "unique peak event" and for practice-enlightenment can be tricky.

Hope I could clarify my point of view with this.

Gassho,

Timo

[toshiro_mifune]

You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.

Of course. But the entry level person who is drawn to zazen, usually does it with some belief, something they had read or had been told. Otherwise they wouldn't undertake this activity, which to a person from the street may not seem very exciting. So even without clining to or gaining, they "expect" in a way, and even "know" more or less what to expect. This is of course immaterial, I was just trying to point out the fact that a belief never plays any role in Zen seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Gassho,
Mike

[Jundo]

Hi Mike,

Of course. One must trust or rely on what the folks are telling one about this Practice at the start. But, after a certain point, one comes to taste such for oneself.

It is a bit like I believed my dad when he said I could ride a bicycle even though it looked so hard. It took some tries, but he was right!

Gassho, J

PS - I know what Timo actually meant to say. My comment was not for him really (I know he knows), but for the many folks new to Soto Zen who might have taken literally his comment that our Soto/Koda Sawaki Way is not about "kenshosatorienlightenment, that's the Rinzai fellows not us". That is very easy for newcomers to misunderstand.

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[kidbuda]

WOW! great thread and subject! thanks all for sharing! I´d like to share my view, briefly : If we live our dharma practice to the heart, dinamic and alive, not like a bunch of precepts, rules, recipes and rituals, it combines really well with catholic and christian religions, and maybe other religions too, of course there will be points where things don´t match perfect but is up to each one of us to decide how to combine our stuff. I don´t encourage "just brainless mixing" to anyone but a more aware, here and now and wholesome and view. But then, that´s just me and my deluded mind.



Gassho

[Ricky Ramos]

As a student of Comparative Religions I have found this conversation very interseting. Since I have nor read the whole thread I don't know if THomas Merton has been brought here. He was a ROman Catholic Trappist Monk who embraced Zen Buddhism. He believed that RC mediattion was very close to Zazen. I believe they are. Besides that, I could mention the ideas of the Saints and Boddhisatvas, the litanies and prayers of Tibetan Buddhism, the ideas of atonning for sin, and even the belief in purgatory and Samsara are very close one from the other.

http://www.thomasmertonsociety.org/altany2.htm

[Biko]

I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it. Unfortunately it does anything but. I find the idea of personality survival beyond death absurd in the extreme. Why on earth would we want to hold on to the ignorant limitations of this human life? My only thoughts on life after death are- How can something that was never created cease to be? I was raised without religion so I fortunately escaped the mind f*ck that it can be on a person later in life when they lose it. All of my problems stemmed from my own creation and I am thankfully reworking that soil and planting better seeds.

Gassho, Jeffrey

[Jishin]

I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it.
Gassho, Jeffrey

Well put. :-)

Gassho, John

[MyoHo]

Jeffery,

I see your point but have to disagree a bit.

Religion is not always and only about death and dealing with it. It's mostly about life and how you live it. Like most other religions, there are differences but also great similarities. Looking at the Precepts, we we quickly see the 10 commandments are not all that different. This among other similarities and the fact that Buddhism and Christianity compliment each other more often then not, make that I have no trouble both being both an observant Christian and a sincere student of Zen. The combination makes that I not only live life but work on living it well!

What comes after life?

Tree in the park
blackbird calling on the roof
raindrops in my begging bowl.

Gassho

Enkyo

[Amelia]

I practice to eventually accept death, not rationalize it, though I admit that the latter was my initial mindset.

[Biko]

I practice to eventually accept death, not rationalize it, though I admit that the latter was my initial mindset.

I mean thats why we are all here. One day everything we love will be taken from us and we will cease to be and we must somehow find a way to make that ok.

Gassho, Jeffrey

[Biko]

On the subject of Zen and Catholicism, I dont see a way to serve two masters. One can certainly use Zen practices and be part of any religion. I just see it as a "Jack of all trades, master of none" situation. I think many people straddle both paths in an attempt to hold onto a fallacious belief in a personal god that resides outside of ones self, yet really never commit to either path. I see it as trying to cover all bases in a "just in case" scenario. I find the god of the old testament to behave like a spoiled toddler, throwing tantrums, making absurd demands on "his" followers and displaying symptoms of a major psychotic disorder at best. I'm not trying to offend anyone here I am just being pointed about what I see as a major negetive force in our world at large.

Gassho, Jeffrey

[MyoHo]

Seems to me you have some way still to go, but that is OK.

Gassho

Enkyo

[Rich]

Every single thing is just the One Mind. When you have perceived this, you will have mounted the Chariot of the Buddhas.” (Huang Po)

Kind regards. /\

[Rich]

The current pope is a very simple and humble man. He just fired a bishop for spending too much money on housing renovations. Very encouraging.

Kind regards. /\