SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Daitetsu]

NOTE FROM JUNDO: I MOVED THIS TO ITS OWN THREAD.

I am sorry to be the party pooper here, but IMHO Zen and Catholicism are not compatible – at all!
In order to make them compatible, you’d have to modify them so much that you couldn’t call it Zen or Catholicism anymore…

I used to be a Catholic, read the Bible completely and studied Christian Theology intensively for years. I talked with priests and other people in that system.
Catholicism is based on dogmas – when you don’t believe in these dogmas then you are not a Catholic per definitionem.

Catholicism is based on some dogmas that define it, e.g.:
- The belief in a God who created the world and still actively intervenes in his creation – we are talking about a theistic belief (i.e. God who is still active) as opposed to a deistic belief (i.e. a God who does not intervene and is completely passive).
- The belief in the original sin that is inherited by every new born child. Because of Adam’s and Eve’s original sin (you have to believe in them as well as a Catholic) every new born human is automatically a sinner as well (so much for fairness).
- The belief that Jesus Christ was the actual son of God (and whose mother was a virgin) who died on the cross to reconcile God with humankind.
- The belief in a real heaven/hell (as opposed to a mere metaphoric one) and the devil
- The ethical basis of the Christian belief is completely different from Zen: as a Christian you follow the commandments because they come directly from God, the highest authority. This is a hierarchical structure – not just within the church.
- And let’s not forget those little weird things like the belief that during the Holy Mass the wafer and wine are actually turned into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (for Protestants this is only symbolic, but according to the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church, this is not just symbolic, but real!)
I could go on and on…

You might be able to combine Zen with the belief in a deistic god and maybe with some types of theistic beliefs (but this already gets quite difficult if you don’t want to believe totally contradictory things), but Catholicism? No way, sorry folks, you can’t do that without twisting the Catholic tenets – and if you do that it’s not Catholicism anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to do a "Catholic bashing" here, but the differences are vast and it is always easy to find a few common denominators with any philosophy.
IMHO Zen is not something that can be combined indiscriminately with everything - there is no use to say otherwise just out of fear to get on the wrong side of somebody...

Gassho,

Timo

[Rich]

I don't have a problem mixing buddhism and catholicism and my interpretation of some of the bible sayings match my zen thinking. Have attended buddhist/catholic retreat workshops with zen masters and priests leading them together. I see the problem as many early catholic practices and teachings have faded and many of the priests are lost in ritual. Timo, had to speed read your post because I'm on my way out and will give it more time later, but the thing that pops is the difference between symbolic and literal interpretation. Practitioners of buddhism are very similar in this respect.

[Hans]

Hello Timo,

revisiting this topic shows me how much my Zazen practise has changed my own experience (I wouldn't even call it a view anymore) of this topic in the last few years. I have some laundry stuff to do now, but will write a bit more later. This is just to say thank you for sharing your own current views with us so openly.


Gassho and all the best,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi,

I was not raised Catholic (not with a name like "Cohen" ), but allow me to offer some perspectives on how Zen Buddhism may be perfectly compatible. Mind you, it takes an open mind on all "sides" of the issue to find the "sideless" side. Zen, especially Shikantaza, is a radical allowing of "what is" whatever the "is" is. So ...

- The belief in a God who created the world and still actively intervenes in his creation – we are talking about a theistic belief (i.e. God who is still active) as opposed to a deistic belief (i.e. a God who does not intervene and is completely passive).

If God intervenes (assuming there is a "God") ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If God does not intervene (or there is no "God") ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in the original sin that is inherited by every new born child. Because of Adam’s and Eve’s original sin (you have to believe in them as well as a Catholic) every new born human is automatically a sinner as well (so much for fairness).

Sinner or no, original or not ... ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. Just do as one can to abide by the Precepts ... not to kill, not to steal, not to covet one's neighbors wife (misusing sexuality), and all the same.

- The belief that Jesus Christ was the actual son of God (and whose mother was a virgin) who died on the cross to reconcile God with humankind.

If Jesus died for our sins and his mother was a virgin ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water. If Jesus did not, and his mother was not ... Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

- The belief in a real heaven/hell (as opposed to a mere metaphoric one) and the devil

Buddhists have had very literal beliefs in "hells". Many Buddhists traditionally did (still do!) believe in rebirth in heavens or hells based on volitional actions (Karma) in this and past lives. Some of the descriptions of "Buddhist Hells" are as hellacious as anything in Western imagination (although the images seem to have developed independently) ... complete with pitchforks and brimstone ... look here. Not for the squeemish. I have seen similar images here and there at temples in China, Japan, Thailand and Korea ... images that would make any Fire & Brimstone preacher in the Bible Belt faint. Just like in the West, images of "hell" were often used by Buddhist preachers to get people to "be good". WARNING: 18 and OVER

https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1745&bih=868&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=buddhist+hell+temple&oq=buddhist+hell+temple&gs_l=img.3...15916.17342.0.17922.7.7.0.0.0.0.107.490.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.6kyHCwPWJ54

I personally am a skeptical, but open minded, agnostic on literal, mechanical models of rebirth. It is not vital to my practice. But I do believe ... and see all the time ... people who make very terrible "hells" for themself and others in this life through their actions in this world. As I often say ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Buddhism also has an image of "the Devil" ... the tempter "Mara" who, in the old Suttas, is often seen trying to lead Buddha off a good course. Does Mara exist literally? Well, like Kannon as a symbol of Compassion who exists through us and is "made real" when we choose our actions and whenever we do something caring and beneficial to others, Mara likewise exists through us when we do something harmful through the temptations of greed, anger and ignorance. In the sense, yes, they are real because compassion and generosity and selfishness and hate all exist as "real forces" in this universe as humans make them real through our words, thoughts and acts.

- The ethical basis of the Christian belief is completely different from Zen: as a Christian you follow the commandments because they come directly from God, the highest authority. This is a hierarchical structure – not just within the church.

Yes. Now, whether from On High or not ... don't kill, don't steal.

- And let’s not forget those little weird things like the belief that during the Holy Mass the wafer and wine are actually turned into the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ (for Protestants this is only symbolic, but according to the Vatican, the head of the Catholic Church, this is not just symbolic, but real!)

Take Communion ... don't take Communion ... in any case, Just Sit, chop wood and fetch water.

By one interpretation, the Buddha never quite meant that there "was not a Creator" or "not not　a Creator". It was more that it is not important to his Insight. Many of the images we encounter in Buddhism are not different really ... Vairocana Buddha is the Universal Buddha of All Reality, the Dharmaskaya ... and Amida Buddha (Pure Land and Zen co-exist and have merged in much of Asia) is a figure who, if one merely has faith in him, will take you to his heaven when you die.

So, I must disagree.

I sometimes say that one can practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way), all can mix.

I see the problem as many early catholic practices and teachings have faded and many of the priests are lost in ritual.

The same could be said of the vast majority of Zen Temples I have visited in Japan.

Gassho, J

[Juki]

My problem with the whole hybridization of Zen with other religions is more fundamental. Zen is a branch of Buddhism, and in Buddhism, we seem to have at least two elements of the Dharma that are incompatible with an omnipotent creator god. The first, to me anyway, is the element of interdependence or interbeing. If we are truly all connected, this seems to weigh against the god of the Abrahamic traditions. Because a god would be outside that circle of connectedness, intervening and managing his creation. We cannot say everything is connected, except for this supreme being. Which brings me to the second element, the element of impermanence.

To rebut my argument regarding interbeing, one could say, "well, everything is connected through god." However, that would make god subject to the same laws of impermanence as everything else.

Of course, this could all be due to me making huge fundamental misunderstandings of the Dharma.


Gassho,
William

[Daijo]

I think I am less passionate about this because I have no background in ritual Catholicism. I think it becomes more of a problem for people who do, which I can understand. But I would suggest, "let it go".

I do see your point, they are completely incompatible.

But I also see Jundo's point, they are completely compatible. Chop wood and fetch water.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

Thanks for your perspective on this and your examples!

You argument (naturally, as you are a Zen teacher) mostly from the Zen side.
However, if someone is a Christian, they will have difficulties accepting Buddhist concepts like “illusion of self”, “interconnectedness of all things”, etc.
IMHO Zen is totally embedded in Buddhism – I know there are people who think Zen can be somehow practiced without Buddhism (I used to be one of these people!), but with every month I practiced I saw that Zen and Buddhism go hand in hand together.

IMHO in one’s Zen practice there comes the stage when we leave Zen behind, when we leave Buddhism behind, when we leave Buddha behind. Everyone here knows the saying “If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him”. Tell a Christian “If you meet Jesus on the road, kill him” – Christians are not meant to finally leave their belief behind.

The main difference for me is that Christian belief is dualistic!
Sõtetsu Yüzen Rõshi said:
„The Christian teaching in all its concepts inherently leads to a dualism and absolutizes the opposites Creator – Creature. Nature – Man.”

When we sit, we ARE the universe. We are one. In Zen there is no thing in the universe that is not us. In fact, there is not even an “us”. There is just is-ness, beingness, pure and raw existence.
The Christian belief system on the other hand leads to all kinds of dualisms.

The main Christian tenet is that we humans need an external savior who saves us, and that we must believe in him in order to be saved.
At first there is the postulation: “You are a sinner!”
Then follows the next: “If you believe in Jesus, you can be saved!”
Except – there is nothing to be saved from!


For me Buddhism is liberation from our self-created suffering, because our views of the world are not congruent with reality.
On the other side, Christian belief tells us that we are all sinners who’ll burn in hell if we don’t believe in a savior.
This does not sound like freedom to me, but more like dependence.
A bit like giving a new born a crutch and make them believe they are not able to walk without it.

I know people will say that my take on Catholicism it too literal. However, it should be considered that without some certain basic tenets everything would be interchangeable. You cannot immunize a belief against criticism by making it totally arbitrary.
When we talk about Catholicism we have an authority for this who tells what dogmas are to believed in: the Vatican.
As soon as you interpret too much, you don’t have Catholicism anymore, but a kind of patchwork belief made of personal opinions.

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

I think, to quote Taigu, we need to put it all down, throw everything away ... all the "can'ts", and "this is incompatible with that" ... because you are yourself making this "dualistic".

Inside, outside, permanent or impermanent ... you are making this.

True "Non-Dualism" is beyond and right through-and-through so-called "dualism" or "non-dualism", monotheism or deism or atheism or ism-ism. It is so "Non-Dualistic" that it does not even care if there is one or two or both or something else!

God, Gods or No God, Pope or Nope, Rain or Shine, Sickness or Health ... we don't care (even if they care and say "impossible"), we sit As What Is.

If there is a God and Jesus, we Sit As So. Take Communion, Go to Confession if you feel so ... then pull up a Zafu.

I will go so far (and I rarely say this) as to call it a complete misunderstanding of Zen Practice.

Stop building walls. Just have a cup of tea.

Gassho, J

[Juki]

Accepted. Thank you.
Gassho,
William

[Jundo]

I will point out that, on the Asian continent (not so much in Japan for various historical reasons), Zen and "Pure Land" Practice ... which involves worship of a Messianic figure in the form of Amida Buddha who takes one to Heaven at death for having faith in Him ... have been completely mixed and merged together for 1000 years or more. The parallels to Christianity are often so uncanny that it makes me feel that such beliefs ... and the need for many to have a "Savior" and "Pie In The Sky When We Die" ... may be hardwired into the brain.

All the doctrinal gaps and seeming inconsistencies between so-called "Inner Power" Zen and so called "Other Power" Buddhism as in Amida were worked out, basically by saying that inner is outer and outer is inner ... and anyway, what is "in" or "out"? Amida and his "Pure Land" Heaven "stand for something beyond words ... so we cannot say exactly what even if felt in the heart.

A whole bunch of Catholic Priests ... mostly Jesuits ... have been also Ordained as Zen Roshi. So, seems it must be possible to somebody ... when the barriers are dropped away ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_(Jesuit)

http://sweepingzen.com/fr-patrick-hawk-roshi-dies-at-69-guiding-teacher-of-the-zen-desert-sangha/

Me? I don't practice particularly with Jesus or Amida or Thor ... but neither do I push them away. If there is a Thor or Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, I will sit as them.

Gassho, J

PS - Haven't heard from Fr. Kryllos and Fr. James, who sometimes visit here. I should drop them a line.

[Nengyo]

The parallels to Christianity are often so uncanny that it makes me feel that such beliefs ... and the need for many to have a "Savior" and "Pie In The Sky When We Die" ... may be hardwired into the brain.

I agree. I think there is something hardwired and it is way stronger in some people versus others.

A whole bunch of Catholic Priests ... mostly Jesuits ... have been also Ordained as Zen Roshi. So, seems it must be possible to somebody ... when the barriers are dropped away ...

Those Jesuits are a crazy bunch. Knowing some of them practice Zen doesn't surprise me at all. I grew up in a catholic part of the country and while my exposure to priest was very limited, the Jesuits seemed to be the most adventurous of the bunch (academically at least)

Me? I don't practice particularly with Jesus or Amida or Thor ... but neither do I push them away. If there is a Thor or Spaghetti Monster in the Sky, I will sit as them.

Thor? I'm sure he appreciates you sitting with him. He was probably getting a little lonely! haha

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

I don't think that Zen is a kind of "anything goes" practice.
I find it a bit strange that you have "dismissed" (that's not quite the verb I have been looking for, but I'm no native speaker) teachers/teachings in the past, that are in fact very close to Zen, but something that is much further away is supposed to be compatible...
You say (for example) that while certain Rinzai practices are fine, they are not "our practice here", but then you say that a dualistic system like Christian belief can be practiced together with non-dualistic Zen Buddhism.
You use to say something like "that is Aikido, but we practice Judo" when it comes to practices that are actually not that far away from Soto Zen, but on the other hand you claim that I take on a dualistic view just for pointing out some decisive differences between Zen and Christian belief. I could do likewise as soon as you say that Rinzai is different from Soto - according to your very own argumentation you would create walls and introduce dualism! But pointing out differences is not the same as building walls.

The thing is, while Rinzai and Soto have overlappings, both practices are not possible at the same time, and while Catholicism and Zen have (very, very) few overlappings, they are not compatible either. You cannot say there is no self, and at the same time claim you have an immortal soul that will go to heaven (or hell) after death.

Personally, I don't like to put people into drawers, but it just does not make sense to say a finger is the same as an ear.

Gassho,

Timo

[Kyonin]

I used to be very aggressive on these kind of topics. I was a very active atheist for many years and had a great share of suffering for not being able to eradicate Christian religions from the face of the planet. Under that optic, Buddhism couldn't mix with any theist religion at all.

Yes, I was young and dumb.

What do I think now?

I don't mind other religions. As a matter of fact I can see beauty in most of them.

Can Buddhism and Catholicism be mixed? Sure. You can take what works for you and be a person of reason, tolerant and peaceful.

Would I mix them? No. I'm happy being a plain Buddhist.

At the end, for me it all comes down to sitting.

That's all there is, really.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Daijo]

Those damn Zen teachers! Always appearing to contradict themselves.

Which reminds me, I have sat in a secular zendo led by Sensei Ray Ruzan Cicetti a former Jesuit and dharma heir to Roshi Kennedy in the White Plum lineage who practice a sort of Soto/Renzai hybrid.

Then there's the wonderful music of Leanard Cohen, fully ordained in the Renzai tradition from the now sort of infamous Mt. Baldy Center. He lists his religion as Jewish.

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

I don't think that Zen is a kind of "anything goes" practice.
I find it a bit strange that you have "dismissed" (that's not quite the verb I have been looking for, but I'm no native speaker) teachers/teachings in the past, that are in fact very close to Zen, but something that is much further away is supposed to be compatible...
You say (for example) that while certain Rinzai practices are fine, they are not "our practice here", but then you say that a dualistic system like Christian belief can be practiced together with non-dualistic Zen Buddhism.
You use to say something like "that is Aikido, but we practice Judo" when it comes to practices that are actually not that far away from Soto Zen, but on the other hand you claim that I take on a dualistic view just for pointing out some decisive differences between Zen and Christian belief. I could do likewise as soon as you say that Rinzai is different from Soto - according to your very own argumentation you would create walls and introduce dualism! But pointing out differences is not the same as building walls.

The thing is, while Rinzai and Soto have overlappings, both practices are not possible at the same time, and while Catholicism and Zen have (very, very) few overlappings, they are not compatible either. You cannot say there is no self, and at the same time claim you have an immortal soul that will go to heaven (or hell) after death.

Personally, I don't like to put people into drawers, but it just does not make sense to say a finger is the same as an ear.

Gassho,

Timo

Hi Timo,

That is a very good point.

I don't think that I ever said that one cannot practice "Rinzai" and "Soto" Zen at the same time. Many do (including all the Sambo Kyodan/Harada-Yasutani derived Lineages that are so prevalent in the US ... Maezumi Roshi's line, Aitken Roshi ... including both those Priests I mentioned). You can. You can engage in Koan Introspection sometimes, sit Shikantaza sometimes.

It is just that we do not practice that here, in our Sangha ... and neither do I Practice Judaism or Catholicism or Atheism or Advaita or Football here, where we practice Shikantaza in Master Dogen's way. If someone wants to spend too much time discussing or advocating Christianity or Advaita here, I ask them to take it outside after awhile. However, one can practice Shikantaza and football (when not sitting), and so the others too.

I think some "teachers" out there like Deepockets Chopra (and "Chuck Genkaku Johnzen Roshi") are phony or conmen. I am personally agnostic or quite skeptical (to the point of not believing) on many questions ... from a "personal God" to "literal rebirth" ... but I never say that I have the exclusive insight on those things, and always say that ... if there is a "personal God" or "rebirth as devas or spiders" ... I can sit with it all. Likewise, all my years of Zen Practice have not given me the power to know if it will rain or be sunny tomorrow ... but rain or sun, I can sit with/as such.

I believe that certain Practices are incompatible with Zen Buddhism ... Nazism for one. One could actually be a kind of "Zen Nazi" (some have been), but the hate and violence takes one to a very dark place. That was not the Buddha's message of Peace ... a message shared by most religions (or, better said, by most people in most religions. We have a few hate filled Buddhists too).

Gassho, Jundo