SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Shonin]

As usual will take time to read the whole thread later. So I'm answering by the original post. I agree that the two are in a way irreconcilable. But, at the same time I had a recent experience with the Catholic Church in the form of the funeral for my recently departed Grandmother.
I am one who is usually extremely uncomfortable in Christian settings in general, and admittedly usually see the differences NOT the similarities. So , at first, I was a bit tense and uncomfortable. As the ceremony continued,i found that the passage read by the priest was actually quite Zen like.It warmed my heart and changed my view on Christianity in general and Catholicism specifically. Also of note was the priest mentioning the common practice of meditating on the Virgin Mary. Just the fact the he said meditation made me more comfortable. But the entirety of the service I didn't feel " excluded" or alone in my beliefs. I was seeing right before my eyes the vast similarities in the message. The way things were phrased didn't set off any of the usual "alarms" aka differences that make me feel uncomfortable.
As for active/versus passive deities. I think that's a point we disagree on. But that's a whole different topic.
Just my two cents ( feel free to convert to any form of international currency at current exchange rates).

Dave _/\_

[Shonin]

Jus, what you say reminds me of a Zen story I once read. I don't remember all the specifics or even who to quote. But I believe it has a valid point. and I'm total paraphrasing but you'll see what I'm saying. Basically it was a Zen teacher talking about how he practiced Feng Shui , and it worked. But it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.He then follows this with how he later practiced the I-Ching ( a form of divination if you are unfamiliar) and stated that it too worked. But he found it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.
That being said, for many years I was a non denominational neo-pagan primarily interested in cross-cultural shamanism. So i'm not against any form of energy work or the beliefs of such things. And do regularly take the time to practice Usui Reiki Ryoho ( a form of healing involving ki originating from Japan). But frankly, in my experience. Zen cuts right down to what all of that is truly about. It is in the end, the whole point of all that energy work. If you're looking to be able to perform cool magick tricks, squash that right out of your head because you are approaching it with the entirely wrong mindset. Question why you have an interest in these things and what you seek to gain from them. What are you prepared to sacrifice( not meaning sheep or your soul/that of others, if one is even to agree that such a thing exists) to receive what are holy teachings requiring many hours of practice not a simple recitation of some chant in the latest fad book written by Witch X. And also keep in mind that in every form of energy work there seems to be one huge common denominator. The absolute most basic foundation ( and simultaneously most profound) is...guess what....meditation.
So just sit.

Dave _/\_

[lobster]

The other week, through no fault of Jesus and all to his credit, I was in my local Catholic Church during Happy Hour or Holy hour, I think it was . . . sitting about as if the last judgement was never going to happen.
Nobody will ever know I was doing 'just sitting' Buddhist meditation. The next time I see a Catholic contemplative at a temple, I will not be too concerned if they are secretly conversing with Yahweh. Atheists may even be ignoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I know or care.

May Christ be with us. Allah Akbar. All hail His Supreme noodliness . . .

[Nikola Mironija]

I had (and I am still struggling, though much less now) with a somewhat same dilemma, but with an Orthodox Christianity. And I realized that this struggle I feel is not because Orthodox Christianity itself is incompatible with Zen itself (there are certain potent parallels, but they are not stressed out enough in Orthodox, or any other Christian theology, it seems to me), but because I see that Orthodox Christians, the Orthodox Church and it's priests are not compatible with Zen.
But that just means those people are being d#cks. At least, that is how I see it at the moment.
I realise that I am not yet in the state where those differences have faded away, but I know it will come to me one day.

[Cumminjd]

"IMHO Zen is not something that can be combined indiscriminately with everything - there is no use to say otherwise just out of fear to get on the wrong side of somebody..."


but id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

thank you..

gassho,

justin

I know that Reddit/meditation discusses this quite often (chi and life force). As a Reiki practitioner (which started in buddhism, not zen, but buddhism non the less) I can discuss a little about the foundations and answer questions if you have any. Its the Japanese version of Chi simply called Ki. I could point you in a couple directions if you want.

Just a few suggestions

Gassho,

James

(btw if discussing anything I have talked about here is against the rules I am sorry and I will delete this comment if needed.)

[Jundo]

Hi James,

Discussing Reiki and such is not against the rules at all. But I personally am very skeptical of many of the claims about it and related practices of manipulating ki.

http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/17/reiki-doesnt-work-either/

By the way, Reiki itself is nearly unknown here in Japan where its founder lived. It became much more well known overseas.

Nonetheless, effective or not, there is nothing to prevent someone from practicing Reiki or the like with Zen Practice. And of course, a kind and gentle touch and laying on of hands is always welcome, even if just a friendly embrace, with or without ki.

Gassho, Jundo

[Cumminjd]

Yes I know the skepticism behind it, and I am not here to shove it down anyones throat. Quite honestly I believe every "age" has had their spiritual healing techniques. Weither it be shamanism, medicine men, or what not. I believe Reiki is a new take on an ancient practice. But this talk if for another time. I just thought I would offer my assistance is anyone is willig to talk about universal life force. Since it is something that is taught threw out any form of energy healing.

Gassho,

James

[Cumminjd]

Actually, oddly enough, Reiki is what lead me to Zen Buddhism. After my first attunement i felt as though i had a different outlook on life. I wanted to find a spiritual practice that made more sense to me. I immediately picked up the book My Spiritual Journey by His Holiness The Dalai Llama. After reading that book I let it set in for a while, and found it to my liking. I then found a Buddhist group that had weekly sittings and started to attend. I had no clue what "Zen" Buddhism was at the time, but liked the sittings. The Priest who lead the sittings directed me here for when I couldn't make it to his sittings

Just a fun story

Gassho,

James

[Jundo]

Thank you, James, for your open minded attitude.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that a Practice such a energy healing is necessarily untrue, but only that I personally am rather skeptical to the point of not believing in many of the claims about it or descriptions of the mechanism. I am also not saying that there is anything wrong about it for some people if it brings them joy and a feeling of connection and healing. Good for them, and the world can use such.

Even the medicine men and witch doctors of old were surprisingly effective and important in their villages. Whether their spells and potions actually cured is one thing, but they brought comfort to many and hope to those suffering, and even belief in the power of healing alone can often bring healing.

So, I am a skeptic ... but an open minded skeptic. As Shakespeare said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I am not the last word, simply doubting and agnostic on certain claims. I may doubt based on controlled studies, but do not doubt the power of the mind to heal itself, and to have real physiological effects thereby, simply by its belief. What is more, maybe all the claims about Reiki or the like are true ... many things first doubted or unproven later prove true.

If a person were to avoid seeing a medical doctor, for example, with simple reliance on "energy healing" to cure cancer in its early stages, I would be very concerned. But if one turns to "healing" in the final stages, because all else has failed and it brings peace and hope ... I would encourage so. In fact, I would encourage seeing the healer and the medical physician at once if it brings hope and comfort.

There are certainly practices and vices in this world that one should avoid because they do harm. Laying on a caring and healing hand is not one of them.

Gassho, J

[Cumminjd]

There is much evidence on both sides of the fence. Its really up to the potential recipient. And in no way do I believe that I or any Reiki practitioner can cure cancer or any disease. I believe it can help calm the mind and the energies and alleviate the stress, allowing for energy to flow. Or at least, for the body to recuperate at a better speed. If i ever was to open up a practice (unlikely) in bold letter there would be NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR DOCTORAL MEDICINE. I believe it can work well WITH doctoral medicine. Furthermore, a broken bone cannot be healed from a Reiki practitioner. But the pain and energies can be soother to promote a better and possibly faster healing.

My thoughts on my practice. Thanks for not completely shooting my practice down

Gassho,

James

[toshiro_mifune]

I was raised as a Catholic, I never went through the formal Catholic education of your level, but even though my family was relatively liberal and neutral, it was a custom in my home country for every kid to undergo basic Catholic training. I was born after the Second Vatican Council, but the Church in my home country picked up the deformations very gradually and hesitantly. I left Catholicism at 13 years of age and have gone though the an angry anti-religious stage. I don't claim that Catholicism is compatible with Zen, also there is no way back, nor do I feel like going back.

But after long years, some reading, some calming down, I realized that in 99% it was my anger talking.

I could go on about every single point you listed (for example the belief in literal heavens and hells is an element in most of Buddhist sects, both Hina- and Mahayana, Self/Other power in Pure Land Buddhism vs Christ, and how they seem to merge into one Power in Jodo Shinshu and ultimately in Zen etc etc etc), but it's the "wafer" that is worth mentioning because it's what the entire Catholicism is about.

The Sacred becomes embodied in the world of flesh and blood and makes you Sacred (moves you further along the Path). In the "authentic" version, you accept it kneeling and the entire thing takes place in Latin language, and you don't understand a word, which makes the moment even more extraordinary. The "transformation" is performed by priests of unbroken lineage (apostles->bishops, bishops->priests). Could there be a way in this?

Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

Gassho,
Mike

P.S. Rene Guenon and Fritjoff Schuon may be worth checking out (with a grain of salt)

[Daitetsu]

Hi Mike,

Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)

You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

[toshiro_mifune]

.. and even more between La Vey's satanism and Catholicism No, I am not arguing for Catholicism. Just pointing out that you can't expect a religion or a spiritual path to be rational. External or pantheistic God, little difference when the rubber hits the road.
And, also that, even though everyone denies it, there is an element of belief in Zen (you didn't say that and I don't claim you did). Non-dualism and inherent Buddha nature is very hard to swallow, at least for me, and I have to actually have some level of trust that Dogen and others acquired this kind of experiential knowledge and are trying to point us to it.

Gassho,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)




I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

Just a few words on misconceptions of misconceptions ...

The "unbroken lineage" is likely not historical, is filled with names of people who could not have been connected, many who had little to do with "Zen", could not have lived at the times indicated, or were completely fictional. The "unbroken lineage" was created by men in China to draw a symbolic link back to Buddha, but was a kind of religious fable or propaganda.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/seeing_through_zen.htm

Nonetheless, the "unbroken lineage" stands for somebody, somewhere ... nameless man and women who have kept the flame of this Way burning over the millenia back to the source.

In fact, "Zen" largely emerged when Indian Buddhist Teachings encountered Chinese-Taoist Sensibilities (and then Japanese Culture). ... yet the blending of flavors also emerged as something very rich and nourishing. It is quite the same, yet different ... sometimes quite different, while just the same with the historical Buddha's original formulations. Now, Western and modern spices are added too. I sometimes compare Buddhism to how the Model T became a Prius ... yet same basic 4-wheels with seats design on the road to not going.

Zen Teachers are human beings. Most Buddhist Teachers I know are generally caring, devoted, wise, compassionate, well trained, illuminating, enlightening folks ... mixed in with a small number of bad apples. I speak about that quite often.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10071-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Sex-Scandal-Finger-Wagging

and

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10480-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Safe-Landings

You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

Gassho,

Timo

HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7461-How-to-attain-enlightenment

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

A couple of Kodo Sawaki quotes on Satori ...

We don’t practice in order to get satori. It’s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

You don’t seek the way. The way seeks you.

You study, you do sports, and you’re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you’re trying to grab it, you’re missing it completely. Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

You say you’re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you’re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.

The buddha-dharma is immeasurable and unlimited. How could it ever have been made to fit into your categories.

No matter what you are grasping for, it’s limited.

In any case, only things for ordinary people can be grasped. Grasping for money, clinging to health, being attached to position and title, grasping for satori – everything you grasp only becomes the property of an ordinary person. Letting go of ordinary people’s property – that’s what it means to be a buddha.

When peace of mind only means your personal satisfaction, then it’s got nothing to do with the buddha-dharma.

The buddha-dharma teaches limitlessness. That which is measureless has to be accepted without complaint.

You lack peace of mind because you’re running after an idea of total peace of mind. That’s backwards. Be attentive to your mind in each moment, no matter how unpeaceful it might seem to be. Great peace of mind is realized only in the practice within this unpeaceful mind. It arises out of the interplay between peaceful and unpeaceful mind.

A peace of mind that is totally at peace would be nothing more than something ready made. Real peace of mind only exists within unpeaceful mind.

When dissatisfaction is finally accepted as dissatisfaction, peace of mind reigns. It’s the mind of a person who had been deaf to criticism when he finally listens to others talking about his mistakes. It’s the mind of a person who, naked and begging for his life, suddenly dies peacefully. It’s the mind of a person who has suddenly lost the beggar who had been pulling at his sleeve, relentlessly following him around everywhere,. It’s the mind after the flood in which the make-up of piety has washed away.

How could a human being ever have peace of mind? The real question is what you’re doing with this human life. What you’re doing with this stinking sack of flesh, that’s the issue.

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo-sawaki-to-you.shtml