SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Jinyo]

It's interesting (to my tiny little mind ) but when I first came to Buddhism (or at least Zen) I remember saying to a friend I was overjoyed at finding a faith/practice which didn't force a belief in an interventionist God.

After reading Thich Nhat Hahn's 'The energy of prayer' and 'Living Buddha, Living Christ' and opening my mind to the input of TreeLeaf's Christian Buddhist members I began to see things very differently.

I now see Buddhism as the ground beneath everybody's feet and it doesn't really matter which direction we walk in with other faiths/beliefs etc - we are all fundamentally standing on the same ground.

Gassho

Willow

(Timo - I have left a comment in reply to yours over on the 'I am leaving' thread )

[Daitetsu]

I said in the other Thread I don't want to start the discussion anew, and I really want to adhere to this.

Just wanted to add that Willow's comment above which is in brackets could give the impression I want to leave - that is not the case, I just tried to dissuade people from leaving in said thread.

@Jundo:
I see, understand, and accept your point of view. I could give you arguments against your last post as well, but I am pretty sure nobody will totally convince the other completely. And that's fine for me - these are just different opinions for me.
It takes up too much energy for me, and especially time that I'd like to invest otherwise (especially for my familiy and sitting).

For me Zen practice is enough in itself - other dogmas are an unnecessary addition that could become an obstacle.
Anyway, time to move on to other topics (for me).

Gassho,

Timo

[Nengyo]

About the Chi thing...

I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
I practice these things for health reasons.

I'm all for this. I would actually like to study tai-chi one day too. Not because it is magical, but because scientist have figured out that getting up and moving around is really good. Tai-chi seems like it would be the perfect thing for off days or slow days when ALL my joints hurt (like today for instance)

I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...

That makes two of us! I purchased two different yoga dvds only to find out that me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)

[Seisou]

me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)[/QUOTE]

I've got corpse pose down pretty well.

[jus]

catfish, jundo, thank you. ive always been interested in metaphysics and abstract stuff, but im not on that new age bandwagon. i guess more "ancient"- vedas, kemet, stuff like that. i think i was just at a point the other day where i was begining to think of my practice as becoming "too cerebral". and i know its just an idea, but like the idea of this "supreme being" that were all part of, or aspects of. and the chakra thing, though i hate to admit it, im curious of that too. i guess fascinated by all things i cant physically sense, maybe thats part of trying to escape samsara. and maybe so, maybe not. how would i know. i just need to worry less and sit more. thank you for the replies.
gassho,
justin

[Juki]

Last night, I was starting into Shunryu Suzuki's portion of the "Three Commentaries" on the Genjo Koan, when I ran into this passage right at the beginning:

The Buddhist way is beyond being and non-being. We know each colorful thread and we know the whole woven cloth. We observe things in two ways without any contradiction. But when we are not sincere enough, we may say. "This is Buddhism, and this is another religion. We are monks, and they are laymen, that's all." You don't understand the whole beautiful cloth.


I have been one of the people who are referred to by Dogen as being ignorant of their own ignorance. My apologies.


Gassho,

William

[MyoHo]

Hi William,

If you like a look at it from the other side of the no sided coin, and if you don’t mind the Christian Catholic terminology have a look at Hugo Enomiya Lasalle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Enomiya-Lassalle.
He devoted much of his life building bridges between these two worlds. He even goes so far as to say both ‘religions’ need one another to survive and has a great understanding of both views and manages to write in an understandable way about it.

Gassho

Enkyo

[Daitetsu]

The Catholic Authorities were not amused btw:

To quote from Enkyo's Wikipedia link about Lassalle:
"In 1958, he published Zen: A Way to Enlightenment, but the Holy See ordered him not to continue publishing on the subject."

Pretty much the same with Willigis Jäger, a Benedictine Zen Teacher. The following is from the German Wikipedia (which has more details on him, since he is a German):
"In 2001 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which was lead by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (who later became Pope Benedict) at that time accused him [Willigis Jäger] of subordinating Catholic religious truths and thus issued a ban on speaking, a ban on writing, and a ban on public appearances."

[bold highlighting by me]


That's what I meant with problems to bring everything under one roof. There is not much tolerance to be expected from the Vatican in these matters...

Gassho,

Timo

[MyoHo]

Hi Timo,

Very true. But later in his life Catholic Church lifted that ban and a lot of good work was done since then I think. Lasalle wrote a lot of good stuff on the matter.

Arthur Schopenhauer once said:

"All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self-evident."

Seems to be the case here but only time will tell don't you think? I for one am sure the 21st century will bring great changes in the way religion and it's definition is perceived. Not in the least because of the emancipation of people’s minds through internet and other media. Look at both Zen monks serving cappuccino and Karaoke and Christian church doing very similar things in order to reach people. The church does not make people anymore but rather people make the church and peoples views of the world are changing, rapidly!

Gassho

Enkyo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Enkyo,

I agree and I am fully on your side with this.
I know lots of Catholics who desperately want to see changes in the Vatican.
So let's hope the "ordinary believers" (i.e. non-clerics) - who are actually supposed to be the base of the church - will eventually succeed in convincing the Vatican to be more tolerant.
I think they must create and be the change in order to make the Vatican loosen some dogmas.

Gassho,

Timo

[Jinyo]

Interfaith and interbeing is the only way forward - lets hope that times really are ' a-changin'

Gassho

Willow

[jus]

william and willow, "amen"!

[Kyonin]

I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.

This is pretty close to what happened to me. I used to believe in all the mysteries of the Chi and I drank the Kool-Aid that said that ancient Chinese culture had it right.

So when training Karate-Do (age 13), I got my ass kicked hard because all my woowoo techniques didn't work. At all.

In time I learned that science, physics and hard training are better than Chi.

Chi is great for new age guys that want to either sell or consume magic methods for doing magical stuff, like getting in touch with totems and such.

Thanks for your comment, Charles

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Heisoku]

Just to add the Anglican point of view, Rowan Williams, the then archbishop of Canterbury, described his faith as; "a silent waiting on the truth, pure sitting and breathing in the presence of the question mark".
Does that sound familiar?
.....not to Anglicans it didn't.

[jus]

right on, kyonin. ive been let down by new age philosophies, big time. luckily nobody has ever choked me out because of them, only choked myself out. anyway, i think this is what the DH would have to say about this, "dont try to use what you learn from buddhism to be a buddhist, use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are!" -dalai lama. i think that was a quote aimed towards Christians, possibly? ive heard him say it to theravadans in Thailand when being questioned about Buddhism in the west, in particular those already involved in a relationship with god. the quote sounds extreme at face value, but i know what hes getting at. gassho, justin