SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[MyoHo]

:d

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[Daitetsu]

Hi Rich,

The current pope is a very simple and humble man. He just fired a bishop for spending too much money on housing renovations. Very encouraging.

I guess you mean that German bishop? Actually, the pope did not fire him, but only suspended him. AFAIK the vatican was even informed about the lavish bishop all the time (for those who don't know: he said the new residence would cost about 1 or 2 million EUR, but at the moment numbers have risen to almost 40 million EUR - quite some difference), but the public pressure here in Germany has been getting higher and higher. Lots of catholics here (and protestants strangely as well) are really upset by this.
However, I have also read recently that it is quite normal that a bishop gets a residence in that price range around here - it's just not made public like in that case.

Yes, I also think the new pope is of a different kind than the previous one (more down to earth), but it is hard to tell what really comes from his heart or what comes due to a reaction that is expected by public.
Media are reporting on this every day here and they want to see something happen.

Is the pope a simple and humble man? I don't know, but I do know he is not beyond dispute, especially because of some serious accusations made against him in the past, i.e. the role he might have played during the brutal military dictatorship in Argentina.
Anyway, we will probably never find that out, and it really does not matter to our practice anyway.

I just wanted to point out that we should be careful whether we call someone a simple, humble man or a bad man. What do we really know about him?
However, I must admit that I'd not call the vatican a humble residence... (SCNR)

Gassho,

Timo

[Rich]

He doesn't live in the official papal residence in the Vatican. Thinks its too luxurious so he lives in a small apartment there, so I heard.

Kind regards. /\

[Rich]

Here's what he said about non believers
“[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation"

Kind regards. /\

[Biko]

Seems to me you have some way still to go, but that is OK.

Gassho

Enkyo

Everyone in this group does, it's why we are here. None of us has the answers, at best we can express opinions. Some opinions differ, so lets try to cease the finger wagging.

Gassho, Jeffrey

[Daitetsu]

Hi Rich,

Here's what he said about non believers
“[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation"

Thank you for this quote. Yes, it is a huge step indeed, and AFAIK he also made an important step toward homosexuals.
This gives me hope for a more tolerant and open Catholic Church. That's actually what lots of its followers are hoping, too.
This is a chance for change, let's hope the rest of the church uses this opportunity!

Gassho,

Timo

[Rich]

Thanks, timo. I hope so. BTW what is Afaik. 😊

Kind regards. /\

[Daitetsu]

Hi Rich,

BTW what is Afaik.

Oh, sorry, I am a bit lazy sometimes... This is an acronym for "as far as I know".

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it. Unfortunately it does anything but. I find the idea of personality survival beyond death absurd in the extreme. Why on earth would we want to hold on to the ignorant limitations of this human life? My only thoughts on life after death are- How can something that was never created cease to be? I was raised without religion so I fortunately escaped the mind f*ck that it can be on a person later in life when they lose it. All of my problems stemmed from my own creation and I am thankfully reworking that soil and planting better seeds.

Gassho, Jeffrey

Yes, it is the ego (the little "self") that fears its own death. But please realize that Zen Practice ... and most of Buddhism ... is very much about this matter of "life and death". Every Zen Temple has this written near the Zendo Door ...

Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance.

Most Buddhists, traditionally, have believed that there are future Rebirths into other lives ... or maybe into a "Pure Land" where one may sit at a Buddha's feet. Not all modern, especially Western, Buddhists believe so (I am a skeptical agnostic on the issue, and it is not so vital to my "right here, right now in this life" Practice), but certainly the vast vast majority of Buddhists did ... and still do ... think so in Asia.

But the interesting fact is that, whether one believes in "rebirth into future lifes" or not ... almost ALL Buddhists I know believe the following:

That life and death are kind of a dream, a state of mind. In other words, "rebirth" (even if you believe in it) exists precisely because you believe in it! When you wake up from the dream, the dream vanishes. One is reborn until one stops thinking and acting like they will be reborn, thus causing rebirth! So, whether one believes or not ... WAKE UP!

What is more, there is that transcendent of small human judgments of "start and finish, life and death, beginnings and endings". This is a fact that almost every present or ancient Zen Buddhist I know believed in ... both believers AND modern skeptics of post mortum rebirth, everyone. Namely, that we are "suchness", even after we "kick the bucket" when the bottom falls out of the bucket. (The best, but somewhat misleading, example is the "waves and sea" example ... where each of the waves worries about what will become of itself when it crashes on the rocky shore, not realizing that each wave was just the water and sea all along). We die, we crash on the beach ... yet roll on and on.

Oh, we believe in a kind of "survival beyond death" too. Better said, we belief in a kind of "survival-non-survival" beyond all small human division of "life and death, starts and finishes".

(By the way, I think one could still Practice "here and now just this life" Zen Buddhism just fine even if thinking the we are totally "kaput", dead and done with, when we go to the grave. No problem. Whatever the case ... rebirth or ocean or not ... just live gently here and now).

Gassho, J

[Biko]

I think something survives death but not the individual personality, but it seems that this something goes back into the pool of energy from whence it came, into the non-dual whole, which we exist in anyway but are too ignorant to see it. In a way we are already dead. I fully agree with the dream analogy. At times consciousness is murky at best but one gets a distinct feeling that they aren't seeing the entire picture, that there is so much more beyond the illusion and limitations of the five physical sense fields. I'm a skeptic at heart so when the unicorns and fairies come out in any belief system I tend to cringe. And I'm just not a fan of mixing multiple belief sytems. I think one should do one thing and do it well. My first Zen teacher had us do a meditation where we would visualize the physical body peeling away, layer by layer until there was just our true existence left. I cant remember what it was called but I think it may have been from the Vajrayana tradition. He was a student of Chogyam Trungpa who later became a student of Kobun Chino Roshi so he tended to bring in aspects of both traditions but firmly seated in Soto Zen.

Gassho, Jeffrey

[Tiwala]

Hi,

wanted to share some insights.

People may want to look at Jesuit spirituality... the parallels are surprising, even more than normal. The god of everyday life, detachment from our likes and dislikes ("to conquer oneself and to regulate one's life in such a way that no decision is made under the influence of any inordinate attachment.), seeing God everywhere, even in despair or sin ("To see God in all things and all things in God") etc.

St. Ignatius, the founder of the Society of Jesus, once wrote.

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.

You have given all to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.

Everything is yours; do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
that is enough for me.

In shikantaza, we also give up everything and simply sit. No issue of right or wrong, no issue of left and right, no issue of doing or not doing, no issue of outside and inside. To be still and know God. Who is he? Who is asking?

I once had a Jesuit math teacher. A lot of people were failing in class and asked what the use of math was, especially to those who won't be needing it for their supposed career paths. He said that, like the enjoying a beautiful sunset, math does not particularly need a use, despite actually being useful.

As a side note, one of the biggest zen groups we have here in the philippines is FILLED with the Catholic religious as zen teachers.

And here's a short trailer of a doc bout Christian-Buddhist dialogue. The guy with the cool east coast (not really familiar with Americanaccents that well.) accent is Fr. Kennedy S.J. Roshi.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWm2YNPFA4

Gassho, Ben

[MyoHo]

Thank you Ben. Maria Theresa used to sit in meditation much similar to our practice. Why similar? Because when she was asked what she was doing sitting like that she answered. "I'm listening to God and he is listening to me". I know it's not shikantaza ( Zen is different from meditation) but this story always amazes me.

Jeffrey: The beauty of our Way ( and this sangha) is the fact that we do NOT discard or take a position against any other religion, belief or culture that gives guidance to people and make them try to live a good and productive life. Simply because we don't know anything for sure and are just fine with that. Is there a God? Maybe yes maybe no. My personal choice is yes but will respect any other standpoint just the same. Thinking or wagging a finger to anyone saying "I'm right and you are not" is the only real mistake we can make in this.

My mother used to say that if you are doing something you can continue doing when Jesus returns, you'll alright. If i'm sitting and He comes, great! If I sit and He does not come yet, also fine. Does not matter in shikantaza. Nothing matters in shikantaza because it's all there. Whole and complete. As good a take on it as any. Of course, of Nazi Buddhist, Child molesting Christian, Mass murdering Mohammedan we can all safely say that is not so good. So will all people observing these and all other religions that make our world so interesting. Why crusading against religion? Yes, I am offended by you calling religion a Mind F*&% but you seem to feel very strongly about it, so it's OK. Why? Something to work with and all good practice

Struggling to deny something forcefully and discarding someones belief system out of hand, is also a form of ego attachment and should be let go of AFAIK (lol) in my humble opinion. I'll always stick to what Nishijima Roshi used to say on this matter: "Both true!" Works for me. Shall we sit ?

Gassho

Enkyo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Enkyo,

Yes, I am offended by you calling religion a Mind F*&% but you seem to feel very strongly about it, so it's OK.

Please don't take the following personal, but when you feel offended when someone says religion is a Mind F*, than IMHO you are the one who feels very strongly about it.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't want to attack you, but I think this is a sign of attachment or even of identification.
If someone said to me "Zen is just huge pile of horse manure" I would not be upset in the least, because I don't identify with Zen, I just practice it.
When you feel upset just because someone attacked religion, you might identify with it. Jeffrey attacked religion, not you as a person. So why feel offended?

Moreover, I think Jeffrey referred to the religious indoctrination in early childhood. Thing is, this is a huge pilar of success for religions: the earlier you begin to plant seeds, the higher the success rate. Little children believe almost anything.

I don't teach anything about Zen/Buddhism to my daughter, as I don't want to indoctrinate her. I let her ask. If she wants to know something, I try to explain it.
If she someday wants to become a Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. - so be it!
However, if I actively tried to make her become a Buddhist, I would do nothing else than indoctrination myself (I want to avoid the expression Mindf* here).

Just to shed light from a different angle here. These kinds of discussions can be a chance to reveal our own attachments.

Gassho,

Timo

[Hans]

Hello,

as long as one still identifies as something (other than in a very playful sense) or someone, the bucket's bottom has not fallen out yet. Does one serve truth wholeheartedly, or identities and beloved ideas instead?


I leave the rest to the scholars.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Biko]

Again I just want to reiterate it was not my intention to offend anyone. In this world and in this sangha I'm sure there are those of us who have been burned very badly by western religions and have very deep scars to heal due to that. Do I need to let that go, heal and move on? Maybe. Or maybe I just need to accept things exactly as they are and leave it at that. I sit for all whom have inflicted pain and suffering on me and other LGBT people in this world.

Gassho, Jeffrey