SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Jinyo]

I feel more free of labels since practicing Zen - not totally free because we're forever trapped within language...... and yet - there are those fleeting moments in zazen when this seems not to be the case. Those rare moments of 'interbe' fly free of dogma, ritual, doctrine.Be free - don't stress about difference - lead a good life - everything follows naturally from following the precepts.

Gassho


Willow

[Daitetsu]

Hi Myozan,

Hi,
When someone eats vegetables, they are a vegetarian. When someone eats pork, they are not. They are one or the other in the present moment.

My friend was a vegan for years. Now she eats meat. In one moment she is a vegetarian; in another moment she is a carnivore. If you take her life so far, as a whole, she is a pork eating vegetarian.

Of course I meant you cannot be both at the same time.
I used to be Catholic many years ago. Does this make me a Zen Catholic?
I know someone who was a Nazi when he was very young, but today he totally rejects this - he even fights vehemently against Nazism. Is he a Nazi forever for the rest of his life, just because he was it as a teenager?

I have never claimed you cannot change paths in your life - it is just that some paths are mutually exclusive to be practiced at the same time IMHO.


One thing I forgot to talk about:

In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

Exactly! But as soon as someone sees practice this way, they already have left a dualistic path like Catholicism behind!
Dualistic paths are about differences - as soon as you drop these differences in shikantaza you have already left the dualistic path. And that's why Zen and Catholicism are mutually exclusive in the long run...
A Catholic who drops all differences of God, Man, Nature, stops being a Catholic in that instant...

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

And Catholic dogmas are mostly contradictory to Zen practice.
Yes, yes, Zen seems to be contradictory in itself – however, there are still real contradictions in this world.
There is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…

Can a Catholic practice zazen? Sure, but (supposed he takes both paths seriously in an equal measure) eventually he will reach a point in his practice when he’ll feel an inner conflict and have to make a decision. Otherwise he’ll practice something like “bompu zen”, just scratching the surface of things.
Zazen is not just some kind of gymnastics for body and mind, but it is deeply intertwined with Buddha, Dharma and Sangha!
When you drop body/mind, there is no “Creator vs. Creation”, no “Nature vs. Man” – there is just oneness.

Hi Timo,

Yes, the above is where we very much see not eye to eye. I do not find anything in Catholic Doctrine from the Zen side which presents a conflict (some Catholics, of course, may find a conflict from their side, but that is their problem). “Creator vs. Creation” or not, “Nature vs. Man” or not, or something else altogether – separation between man and god or no separation (or no "man" or "god" at all!) - no matter, all cool, what is just is, there is just oneness which holds all such options.

Yes, a pork eater is not a vegetarian. Yes, the Buddhist Precepts sometimes (a subject for another day) may point to eating carrots over cows. However, this Zen Way truly surpasses and embodies both carnivores and vegans, Catholics and Atheists and Silly Billies and everything else. In fact, it even comfortably holds those folks who see conflict between "Zen and Catholicism" and those who see not conflict, Jundo and Timo and Jesus and Buddha ... all held within the True Oneness without the least Conflict!

Uchiyama Roshi, who used to pepper his Zen Talks with reference to "God", wrote this as his Death Poem on his deathbed ...


Just Bow

Putting my right and left hands together as one, I just bow.
Just bow to become one with Buddha and God.
Just bow to become one with everything I encounter.
Just bow to become one with all the myriad things.
Just bow as life becomes life.

Such is True Oneness ... Oneness that is "Oneness" whether with one, two, three or noneness.

(That being said ... in this Sangha we practice Zen Buddhism in the Soto Way, and not Catholicism. Someone must go to a Catholic Church or a Jesuit Roshi for that.)


Gassho, J

[Myozan Kodo]

Gassho
_/||\_

[Dokan]

Interesting thread. Too much for me, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks everyone.

Gassho,

Dokan

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Nengyo]

I am so confused as to why people are so upset about this post. I was an evangelical christian for many years. I moved slowly to deist, then became a pure bred atheist and anti-theist. I even started my local atheist and agnostics organisation. For a while I combated theistic religions everywhere I found them. On forums, on facebook, but most of all in real life. I drove across states to debate people, to humiliate mobile creationist museums, and to support protest. Trust me when I say few people on earth hated religion more than I. And yet, I still found Zen Buddhism. I guess a couple years of Zazen has softened my stance. To me, any perceived problems are an illusion. If we think there is one inch of separation between us and the Christians or the Pure Land Buddhist we are still caught in the trap.

Perhaps some of this issue is that Jundo regularly stops digressions into forms of Buddhism that are close to ours, but encourages people who are Christians to continue their practice. The way I see it, this is a Soto Zen forum and sangha. We practice, discuss, and support each other on a foundation of Dogen's teachings. Sure, if you want to practice secret mantras, chants, and koans you can. Jundo certainly won't jump through your computer monitor to stop you. However, he cannot let those practices take over the forum anymore than he could let hoards of Catholics start inundating us with sacramental rites and saints to worship, mainly because he is a Soto Zen teacher. There are other forums and sanghas for that other stuff.

Of course I meant you cannot be both at the same time.

With each bite you are what you are. One, the other, both, and neither. We die and are reborn a million times per meal.

And that's why Zen and Catholicism are mutually exclusive in the long run...
A Catholic who drops all differences of God, Man, Nature, stops being a Catholic in that instant...

There are teachers in both traditions that think you are incorrect. That alone should give your certainty pause...

<The standard disclaimer; If I have misunderstood the issue, please disregard all. Also, take everything I say with a grain of salt. It is certain that I am wrong about most things and the degree to which I'm wrong remains a mystery.>

[Daitetsu]

Hi Nengyo,

Thanks a lot for sharing your background and your view of things - I found both very interesting.
Actually, I agree with most things you said about our practice, but about

There are teachers in both traditions that think you are incorrect. That alone should give your certainty pause...

I must say there are also people from both traditions that would agree with my opinion.
And that's the keyword - it is an opinion.

I agree with so many things Jundo and Taigu say and teach at Treeleaf that it would almost be scary if I would not disagree now and then.
Nobody can always agree on everything, and that's fine. Wouldn't it be boring if it were just sunshine all the time?

So all in all, my opinion (and I know I am not alone with it) on this matter differs from Jundo's, but I accept it and I hope he accepts it, too.
And just to add a last disclaimer:
I have nothing against Christians or people from other religious backgrounds. I am not saying they are not supposed to practice Zen. All I say is that practicing both will probably lead to an inner conflict when practice deepens.

Thanks a lot for all people contributing to this thread, especially Hans and Jundo who put so much effort in it.

Gassho,

Timo

[Daijo]

I think Timo is right.
I think Jundo is right.
And I do mean that. I completely agree that Zen and Catholicism are not peanut butter and chocolate. They are filled with clashing ideals about damned near everything. I also see clearly 100% that "in Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".





In the end though, in my ignorant view, what are zen and Catholicism if not just "ideals"? Doesn't this practice cut through all of that BS and go straight through and beyond the heart of those "ideals"? If there were to be some "reason" for all of this sitting on cushions. Isn't that it? To cut right through the illusion of not only Catholicism, Islam, Alchemy, Nazism, Nationalism, Communism, but also of our beloved Zen?

And I hope people will not leave treeleaf because of this. If they do, it's OK, I will sit with that too. I just hope those contemplating it will stop to think "Go where?" To that place where it's better? There is no place to go.

[Jundo]

I think it just comes down to how one Practices: One can practice Catholicism and Zen with a harmonious interpretation finding common or transcending ground (some do), or find instead conflict (many do).

Perhaps some of this issue is that Jundo regularly stops digressions into forms of Buddhism that are close to ours, but encourages people who are Christians to continue their practice. The way I see it, this is a Soto Zen forum and sangha. We practice, discuss, and support each other on a foundation of Dogen's teachings. Sure, if you want to practice secret mantras, chants, and koans you can. Jundo certainly won't jump through your computer monitor to stop you. However, he cannot let those practices take over the forum anymore than he could let hoards of Catholics start inundating us with sacramental rites and saints to worship, mainly because he is a Soto Zen teacher. There are other forums and sanghas for that other stuff.

That is so. I may find Catholicism, Islam or Rinzai Practice (and many other ways) potentially harmonious with Soto Zen Practice ... but if someone takes up too much space around here talking about The Virgin Birth or Allah or MU'ing, I will point them to a church or mosque or Rinzai Roshi. As I often say ... Karate is a wonderful art, and Ai-ki-do is a wonderful art, and some folks may even combine the two (Kara-ki-do?). However, here in our Ai-ki-do Dojo we practice Ai-ki-do, not the others. Karate is great, but if someone comes on our mats and starts to practice Karate and not Ai-kido for too long, I point them to the Karate Dojo down the street and wish them well.

I agree with so many things Jundo and Taigu say and teach at Treeleaf that it would almost be scary if I would not disagree now and then.
Nobody can always agree on everything, and that's fine. Wouldn't it be boring if it were just sunshine all the time?

Oh, didn't I mention that Taigu and I are Infallible on all pronouncements of Dharma, and anyone disagreeing is subject to a "Treeleaf Excommunication"?

Beware the Buddhist Inquisition!



Gassho, Pope Jundo I

[Nengyo]

I must say there are also people from both traditions that would agree with my opinion.
And that's the keyword - it is an opinion.

Timo, of course it is just an opinion! It is the certainty with which we hold our opinions that I was referring to. Once we admit that some portion of our understanding may be incorrect it much easier to reach common ground. I agree with you that practicing both Christianity and Zen may cause inner conflict at some point. I only practice one and occasionally have inner conflict. I believe the saying goes , "great doubt, great faith, great effort!"


I enjoyed reading your point of view and my dismay was directed at those who would leave over this non-issue, not at you for having a differing opinion. To paraphrase what Jundo stated earlier; shikantaza is beyond opinion, dogma, compatibility, and any other concept.

I think Timo is right.
I think Jundo is right.
And I do mean that. I completely agree that Zen and Catholicism are not peanut butter and chocolate. They are filled with clashing ideals about damned near everything. I also see clearly 100% that "in Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".

Exactly!

And I hope people will not leave treeleaf because of this. If they do, it's OK, I will sit with that too. I just hope those contemplating it will stop to think "Go where?" To that place where it's better? There is no place to go.

Isn't there a koan about this exact situation? Something like; A monk wants to leave the monastery. The master says OK, but keeps telling him, "not that door" until the student gives up and just sits.

[Nengyo]

Oh, didn't I mention that Taigu and I are Infallible on all pronouncements of Dharma, and anyone disagreeing is subject to a "Treeleaf Excommunication"?

Beware the Buddhist Inquisition!



Gassho, Pope Jundo I

Poke him with the comfy pillow!

[Genshin]

Well, I'll carry on sitting tonight facing the wall as I do every night, free from labels, goals and isms.

(although perhaps slightly more confused when I come off the cushion)

Gassho
Matt

[MyoHo]

Doesn't chuck Genkaku Johnsen Roshi have a crashcourse for that? With robe and all? Yeah, pretty sure along with a free Wich Trial home liturgy set, if you are one of the first five to order.

[Jishin]

Jesus, the pope, and all the catholic followers are Buddhist. They just don't know it.

Gassho, John

[Risho]

hahahhahah, nice John

I do believe Zen and Christianity are compatible.. well because I practice Zen and I'm a Christian

I've always been a Christian who didn't take beliefs for granted. I'm not going to argue magic or heaven and hell. I might as well argue about unicorns and leprechauns. To me the point is how we live this life now.

I'm a man of reason and science, which is why I really really like Zen. It's very scientific in the sense that you put your money where your mouth is and test and verify the Buddhis tenets through your practice.

So even in Zen there are beliefs. You have to have faith in the path and let it unfold. Really that faith is important. I can't tell you how many times I've had to kick myself in the ass to continue practicing and just letting myself have faith in this to keep going. Faith is just part of being human. No matter what we do, there is just a deep element of belief.

Gassho,

Risho