SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

[Taigu]

Thirty years ago I was friend with a young Christian monk and we used to sit in complete harmony beyond sameness and differences.

We are still sitting now.


Maezumi roshi used to say that God and Buddha were one
So did Deshimaru roshi
Trungpa insisted on the non theistic nature of Buddhist practice
You ll find Jesuit roshi
Zen catholics

Great variety under the sun


Who is right?

I am not my beliefs ( and I have many just like everybody else)I am not my thoughts about this and that
Throwing everything away
What is left?

Part of me is not very keen on Catholicism for I remember the of abuse by a priest as a child when I was brought up as a catholic, another part of me feels gratitude remembering the sweet and warm stories an old priest used to tell us.

In shikantaza, all of this vanishes.

If you want to run a crusade against catholics, this is definitely the wrong place. No crusades or holy war here.

If you d like a mix of Christianity and Buddhism to be taught here, wrong place too.

If you want to leave Treeleaf, you are certainly deluded for you cannot leave THIS. Nobody can.

Are you upset about this thread, rather than going up and about in your usual style, fuming and furious, STOP. LOOK at your inner irritation. Question it. Where does it come from? Why do you make such a big deal? Who is making such a big deal? Are you sure this is worth it? How would you be without that thought?


Take care and good practice

Gassho


Taigu

[Risho]

If you want to leave Treeleaf, you are certainly deluded for you cannot leave THIS. Nobody can.

hahahah that is so true!!!

[Heishu]

To leave or not,
where would I go,
but here.

Thank you Jundo and Taigu for Treeleaf.

Gassho,
Heishu

p.s. Never was considering a departure but was only echoing Taigu that I cannot leave this.

[Jundo]

Let me present a little parable to explain my too simple feeling on this. (Symbol Hint: The "Golden Chair" represents "God")

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu resting upon a Golden Chair, which holds and supports us.

Now, imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with the Chair sitting across the room, somewhat distant.

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with the Chair outside the room in the garden, hard to see.

Imagine sitting Zazen on a Zafu with no Golden Chair, never was one and never will be. (Atheism)

Or maybe you have doubts about whether the Golden Chair is there or not there. (Agnosticism, Jundo's approach)

Or, imagine that there is Only the Golden Chair, and everything ... you, the Zafu, the room, the garden ... rests comfortably inside it, in fact, IS the Chair.

Well ... where is there not sitting? How is sitting Zazen in any way prevented by where the chair is, or is not, or never ever was?

Someone might believe that the chair is all, or under us, or far away or never was here at all ... and such is just what is. Sitting. We Zen folks are fine where or however the Chair is, or there being no Chair at all.

Anyway ... while any of the above may or may not be true ... simultaneously, in the dance of Wholeness ... what separate you? what zafu? what room? what garden? what distance? what gold? what Chair?

I hope that helps. Big Theological Debates on the imminence or existence of God are no more important to Zazen than whether there is a chair in the room or not while sitting is sat.

... id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

Hi,

I will tell you that, personally, I think that things like "universal energy/chi" and "raising vibrations" are a bunch of pseudo-scientific fooey and poppy-cock right up there with the Lock Ness monster. Having lived in Japan and China for much of 30 years, and experienced many so-called demonstrations of "chi/ki", I do not believe that "chi" actually exists, but that it is a traditional belief from before the time that there was an understanding of modern physiology, and people convince themselves that they can "really feel it". So, I do not teach such here at Treeleaf.

On the other hand, beliefs about Chakras, Chi and all that have been a part of Indian and general Asian culture for a long time, and were believed in by many old Zen folks (because they were old Asian folks). Many modern teachers still believe in that stuff, and talk about it. So, yes, it can be another chair in the room I suppose. I think it is hooey, but there are people who speak about it. I believe that this "Shinzen Young" fellow is such a guy, but I am not so impressed by him or his "new agey" approach and (to me anyway) semi-silly talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGmU1oVroLM

Gassho, J

[MyoHo]

Thank you Jundo and Taigu for not falling in the one and the other trap of the mind. You both show the way with great patiance as ususal. A Swedish zen priest/ protestant minister sent me something I use in my practice and think bridges some obstacles made by the mind. Taigu formulated what is in my heart in a more mature way then I ever could. Thank you.
Just to be sure: there is a great difference between having faith in the Church as an institution and having a Christian faith. But that is a whole topic all together.

I very much want to leave the topic now because it DOES NOT MATTER! For me this is only an interesting exploration of a phenomenon. That is all it should be.

Here is something id like to share with you that I use daily thanks to Gustav Ericcson sensei:

My prayers before and after zazen goes like this:


God, you are the whole.
In you, I live and move and have my being.
Let me sit firm in your love,
upright in your forgiveness,
and still in your peace.
Amen.


// bell //
The first sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in me.


// bell //
The second sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in my family and friends.


// bell //
The third sound of the bell is my prayer for peace in all living beings.


// zazen //


// bell //
The sound of the ending bell calls me to bring my practice into everything I do, in order to serve those in need.


God, we are all one body in you.
Let my practice be an open vessel
for your love, forgiveness and peace.
Amen.

[Jundo]

Thank you, Enkyo, for quoting my Dharma Brother (fellow student of Nishijima Roshi) Gustav Ericcson, who is a Zen Teacher and a Lutheran priest with the Church of Sweden ...



Now, someone wrote with an interesting question: Why would I write that, in my opinion, "energy vibrations" and such are hooey that I will not teach at Treeleaf, but not call some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church "hooey" and "poppy-cock". Well, the fact of the matter is that I do think that many of the claims of Judaism, Christianity ... and Buddhism ... are "hooey" and unbelievable if taken literally. Walking on water (Buddhist stories have that too) is not believable to me if taken literally. I have less problem with such things if taken as allegory, symbol, myth capturing some greater lesson etc. So, I do not teach Catholicism, Judaism at Treeleaf any more than I teach "energy vibrations" or some of the (to me anyway) silly and superstitious stories and beliefs of Buddhism (here is an example from yesterdays "Onions and Garlic" thread) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10913-the-Garlic-and-Onions-blues&p=100772&viewfull=1#post100772

In my personal view, ANY exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of miracles and magic by anyone is likely "hooey and poppy-cock" if taken literally, so I do not teach them here as literal truths. (I also do not teach these things here because they are irrelevant to our Shikantaza practice, much they same as "auto-mechanics" is irrelevant, so I do not teach carburetor tuning here either! ). However, I am not the final word on such things, and someone else may find great value in such teachings, from transmogrification of wine to the blood of Christ to "energy vibrations" to something else. One man's "baseless myth" is another man's "wise teaching".

In the end, belief in each is just another "chair in the room" to move around as one wishes. Nothing about believing or not believing in such things which ultimately impacts Shikantaza one bit.

Gassho, J

PS - I am hoping the Gustav will be a guest speaker here, and lead a short Zazenkai at Treeleaf, this summer. Maybe he can speak on these themes.

[adrianbkelly]

God, Budhha, Allah, Catholic, Protestant, Soto, Rinzai, Theravada, Pure Land, Gelugpa, Nyingma, Sunni, Shiite, Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Hindu, Democrat, Republican, Communist, Capitalist......all are just piss in the wind. What counts is being at peace with yourself & the world & being kind to those around you.

_/\_
Ade

[Nengyo]

id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

Hi Justin, I thought I would add just a little to Jundo's assessment of chi. Not only do I agree with him, but I would also like to add that I think the pursuit of such things is a little bit dangerous. Not for the reasons people may normally tell you. To get my point across, I will tell one more personal story (I may have shared this before, but I forget.)

When I was young I was pretty small and very weak. I was the ultimate book reading nerd. I could read several books in a day easily. I read the entire set of encyclopedias in middle school, but I couldn't fight, couldn't do a pull up, and couldn't run fast... you get the idea. So, after reading a black belt magazine I decided to study martial arts. My first teacher was a big believer in this internal energy "chi" stuff. I wanted to believe so badly. It was a short, skinny nerd's dream. I threw myself into practicing my chi/ki exercises. I did all kinds of whackaloon crap for way too long chasing that dream.Then one day I sparred a friend who was learning kickboxing. Guess what? All my ki training didn't do one god damn thing. Nothing. It was the same as if a had practiced the ancient art of voice throwing in preparation for fighting. I didn't make me stronger, faster, or better. I didn't heal faster, I couldn't read my opponents, nothing. Before that sparring session I though I had achieved all of those things. I had deluded myself. I tricked myself into thinking I was doing something while doing nothing. All of that time would have been better spent exercising, meditating, doing kata, juggling, or reading. I would later study jujitsu, where we would occasionally meet people pandering these "secret" skills. But in juijitsu and judo, if it doesn't work on the mat it is rapidly ignored. I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.

Much metta
Charles

[Jakudo]

I feel more free of labels since practicing Zen - not totally free because we're forever trapped within language...... and yet - there are those fleeting moments in zazen when this seems not to be the case. Those rare moments of 'interbe' fly free of dogma, ritual, doctrine.Be free - don't stress about difference - lead a good life - everything follows naturally from following the precepts.

Gassho


Willow

Thank you Willow, you have summed up my sentiments nicely. I was brought up as a United Protestant (a very sombre, strait backed kind of church). My wife and children are Catholic and we were married in a Catholic church. I used to feel uncomfortable at Mass with all the ritual, kneeling and such but have found my Zen practice helped my feel more at ease.
Gassho, Jakudo.

[alan.r]

Oh, good story Charles. I really liked that.

I also really enjoyed Hans' talk, too. Very nice. I'm going to watch it again right now.

I'm reminded of a story about Suzuki Roshi. It's something about vegetarians. The anecdote goes something like this: Suzuki Roshi smashed a finger while doing some work. He had to go to the hospital and so had one of the students drive him. This particular student was a very strict vegan, I believe. He hadn't eaten any meat product in a couple years. Suzuki Roshi was aware of this and I think even asked the student about it a couple times. The student was very serious about the whole vegan thing. Anyway, after the hospital, Suzuki Roshi was hungry and told the student to stop for some food. There were only fast food places. The student said this and Suzuki Roshi just said, Stop here at this one. The student ordered a grilled cheese and Suzuki Roshi got a double hamburger. Already the student was studying the grilled cheese with great disgust and annoyance, frustrated that after a couple years of not eating animal products, he was now going to consume CHEESE! Suzuki Roshi took a bite of his hamburger and said something like, I'm not in the mood for this, let's trade. He took the grilled cheese and ate it and waited until the student finished his sandwich. The student never took the whole food thing so seriously again, so the story goes.

Gassho

[Kaishin]

Why both?
Gassho, Kaishin

[Daitetsu]

About the Chi thing...

I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
I practice these things for health reasons.
The movements stretch your body (a bit like yoga) and since you "synchronize" them with your breathing you relax at the same time.
And when you have the mindset of shikantaza while you practice, you have something like zazen in motion...
Due to my job I sit at least 8 hours per day in front of a computer. This means potential problems for the back.

Since I practice these techniques I have never had back problems again, my body posture improved dramatically (I used to have a very bad posture), my breathing became healthier, and I am more relaxed.
Sometimes I get a tingling and very warm feeling in my body. However, while some people call that chi, I think this phenomenon can be explained scientifically, but I am no expert in biology.

So I say yes to Qigong practices for health reasons, but building up Chi? I think this is concept that was used in the past in order to explain processes in the body that could not be explained otherwise back then.
I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...

Gassho,

Timo

[Risho]

I have only done Tai Chi a couple of times, but I know what you mean with that tingly feeling. Chi or no Chi I do remember it was a really, really cool art. Yoga is really fun too; I like how it kicks your ass because you just have to stay there in those deep bended lunge postures (aka warriors) etc. It's like a strength and stretch exercise all in one.

Now I could teach you the mystical secrets. Please email me and I will tell you them for 4 payments of $30. haahhhah just kidding

[Daitetsu]

I have only done Tai Chi a couple of times, but I know what you mean with that tingly feeling. Chi or no Chi I do remember it was a really, really cool art. Yoga is really fun too; I like how it kicks your ass because you just have to stay there in those deep bended lunge postures (aka warriors) etc. It's like a strength and stretch exercise all in one.

Now I could teach you the mystical secrets. Please email me and I will tell you them for 4 payments of $30. haahhhah just kidding

Can I pay by PayPal? But, hey wait a minute, 30 bucks?

BTW: You also get this tingly feeling with some relaxation techniques like "Progressive Muscle Relaxation" - I guess you get this when the body relaxes really deeply.
When people ask me whether they should practice zazen (or meditation in general) in order to relax I always tell them there are much more effective methods for relaxing.
But well, this is one of those cliches that we must live with, I guess...

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

I am going to respond to Timo's post from the other thread here, just to keep everything together ...

I know people who call themselves Catholics, but don't believe in a personal god, or don't believe in Jesus being the son of god or don't believe in Mary being a virgin - but I would not call them Catholics anymore (although they themselves still do).
So as soon as someone during zazen drops one of those dogmas issued by the Pope, I would not call them a Catholic anymore - that's what I meant with you cannot practice both.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post100943

I want to be clear that I believe that someone --CAN-- believe in a personal god, that Jesus is the son of god, that Mary was a Virgin and follow every pronouncement of the Pope and still practice Zen without conflict.

Or, you can not believe and do those things (like me) and still practice Zen without conflict.

There can be no conflict in Zen Practice with such beliefs ... all chairs that are in or not in the room while we Practice Zen.

Gassho, Jundo

By the way, commenting on the concept of "Buddha" in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra (the same is found in other Mahayana Sutras traditionally cherished by Zen folks like Dogen such as the Lotus and Flower Garland), Dr. Guang Xing writes:

'One of the main themes of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra is that the Buddha is eternal, a theme very much in contrast with the Hinayana idea that the Buddha departed for ever after his final nirvana. The Mahayanists assert the eternity of the Buddha in two ways in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. They state that the Buddha is the dharmakaya, and hence eternal. Next, they re-interpret the liberation of the Buddha as mahaparinirvana possessing four attributes: eternity, happiness, self and purity. In other words, according to the Mahayanists, the fact that the Buddha abides in the mahaparinirvana means not that he has departed for ever, but that he perpetually abides in intrinsic quiescence. The Buddha abiding in intrinsic quiescence is none other than the dharmakaya ... This dharmakaya is the real Buddha. It is on this doctrinal foundation that the Mahaparinirvana Sutra declares:"the dharmakaya has [the attributes of] eternity (nitya), happiness (sukha), self (atman) and purity (subha) and is perpetually free from birth, old age, sickness, death and all other sufferings ... It exists eternally without change ..."



This Dharamakaya Buddha took form as the Nirmanakaya, the flesh and blood Buddha, Gautama Buddha. This is Mahayana Buddhism 101. I put forth to you too that Mahayana perspectives like that (and Amida the Savior, etc.) are only a hop, skip and a jump from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is not my particular interest ... because to me it is all just placing chairs in the room ... but there is ample common ground for those who wish.

http://www.misterdanger.net/books/Buddhism%20Books/The%20concept%20of%20the%20Buddha.pdf