Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

Oh, stlah is our crazy little "tradition" around this Sangha ...

You are still new here, so don't really need to be concerned until more settled in, after a few month. However, "st/sat/sattoday" is this ...

Sure, I can see the point of that, we can all use a bit of encouragement from time to time.

sttdy

[Jundo]

ps: what does stlah mean?

Oh, stlah is our crazy little "tradition" around this Sangha ...

You are still new here, so don't really need to be concerned until more settled in, after a few month. However, "st/sat/sattoday" is this ...

SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-SatToday-Make-sure-you-have-SAT-before-joining-in-forum-CHAT%21

And "LAH/led-a-hand" is optional "good deed a day" program we have here

A TREELEAF PROJECT with EVERYONE’S PARTICIPATION REQUESTED: “LAH” (Lend A Hand)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15314-A-TREELEAF-PROJECT-with-EVERYONE%C2%92S-PARTICIPATION-REQUESTED-%C2%93LAH%C2%94-%28Lend-A-Hand%29

Gassho, J

stlah

Well, yes, we sometimes have to run run run on the treadmill in order to realize this "no where in need of going" message.

But remember that our practice is not really just putting down the running and effort. We don't simply give up, drop all effort, fail to move and stop living, planning, dreaming ... but neither are we prisoners of desires, goals, never resting and lost in future worries and dreams. Rather, it is discovering that moving and stillness, diligent effort and "nothing lacking, nothing in need of doing" are both so at once, like two sides of a no-sided coin.

As to the traditional elements, some folks see the wisdom and beauty there, some folks may find it a distraction. For me, some of the things are just decorations or "Japanese culture" (like tatami mats and shoji screens, which I only have because I happen to live in Japan in a Japanese house.) But other traditional practices ... like Robe sewing, Oryoki and Chanting ... are powerful and filled with wisdom and lessons to embody.

Since a part of our practice is to put down "likes and dislikes" and personal preferences, the traditional and other aspects of Zen practice that we find annoying can actually also become a lesson in doing them anyway with acceptance and equanimity beyond "like and dislike." An example for me is doing full prostrations in front of a Altar, which somehow goes against my American Yankee "handshake" values. Nonetheless, I bow in humility just for that reason, dropping the resistance.

Gassho, J

stlah

To be fair I'm actually pretty used to the accoutrements of Japanese culture, having practiced Aikido for many years, wearing a Hakama and dogi, bowing and using Japanese terminology and manners are second nature by this point so certainly not something I find annoying, I quite like the aesthetic and it does put one in the frame of mind (can't do much else but practice when dressed like that!) As for bowing, I recall Shunryu Suzuki talking about bowing, bowing to statues, cats, anything really, not as a mark of both respect and humility, so not a problem there for me at all.

I guess that for me, as someone who's looked into a number of traditions, Western and Eastern (with Zen always in the background, I read Suzuki when I was a teenager), what I have noticed is that people talk about none of it being necessary, yet doing it anyway. It's a bit like the Western mystery traditions where the initiate was finally, after many years of practice and testing, brought before the Holy of Holies, and showed an empty shrine (I always wondered if the mirror in a Shinto shrine might suggest something similar).

I suppose my issue is, if anything, an awareness that I like these things too much, even while I'm aware that they are non-essentials, yet my mind still likes them and I do have a few bits of paraphernalia, beads, bells, the rest, but don't want to just be a plastic Buddhist. Learning to live with this paradox and loosen my mental hand so to speak, rather than worrying about the things I'm grasping at/or rejecting, could as you say become a practice of acceptance and equanimity.

Gassho,

ps: what does stlah mean?

[Jundo]

Regarding video 4, this non-seeking is a theme that comes up a lot in more advanced spiritual systems, yet getting to that point in oneself often requires a lot of seeking, joining groups, going through rituals and formalities, and then engaging in practices such as zazen, which are seemingly designed to negate the need to seek and belong, or to go through such things in the first place. It makes me wonder if, by seeking to become a Buddhist and engage in the tradition, beyond just sitting, is itself a case of the dog chasing it's own tail?
In short, how much of the ritual, formality, robes, bowls and the rest, is scaffolding at best, and at worst a net or a distraction to the beginner?

Well, yes, we sometimes have to run run run on the treadmill in order to realize this "no where in need of going" message.

But remember that our practice is not really just putting down the running and effort. We don't simply give up, drop all effort, fail to move and stop living, planning, dreaming ... but neither are we prisoners of desires, goals, never resting and lost in future worries and dreams. Rather, it is discovering that moving and stillness, diligent effort and "nothing lacking, nothing in need of doing" are both so at once, like two sides of a no-sided coin.

As to the traditional elements, some folks see the wisdom and beauty there, some folks may find it a distraction. For me, some of the things are just decorations or "Japanese culture" (like tatami mats and shoji screens, which I only have because I happen to live in Japan in a Japanese house.) But other traditional practices ... like Robe sewing, Oryoki and Chanting ... are powerful and filled with wisdom and lessons to embody.

Since a part of our practice is to put down "likes and dislikes" and personal preferences, the traditional and other aspects of Zen practice that we find annoying can actually also become a lesson in doing them anyway with acceptance and equanimity beyond "like and dislike." An example for me is doing full prostrations in front of a Altar, which somehow goes against my American Yankee "handshake" values. Nonetheless, I bow in humility just for that reason, dropping the resistance.

Gassho, J

stlah

Regarding video 4, this non-seeking is a theme that comes up a lot in more advanced spiritual systems, yet getting to that point in oneself often requires a lot of seeking, joining groups, going through rituals and formalities, and then engaging in practices such as zazen, which are seemingly designed to negate the need to seek and belong, or to go through such things in the first place. It makes me wonder if, by seeking to become a Buddhist and engage in the tradition, beyond just sitting, is itself a case of the dog chasing it's own tail?
In short, how much of the ritual, formality, robes, bowls and the rest, is scaffolding at best, and at worst a net or a distraction to the beginner?

[Jundo]

Thank you for the post on pain. It's something I have been sitting with (no pun intended : ) ), and trying to figure out how to live with my chronic back pain in my practice. I appreciated that you acknowledged the feeling one can have when they see everyone seated so perfectly, and for some with physical injuries or limitations, it may not be possible to appear this way. Just that acknowledgement alone was really helpful.

Sat today


Autolyse

This may help as well ...

Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15681-Zen-Practice-with-Physical-Illness-or-Disability

We all "sit" as our body needs to "sit." Many fine ways to "sit."

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[autolyse]

Oh I enjoyed that video so much! Thank you! I had never seen it.

As a mother of very young children, sometimes there is so much... noise. Today I will begin listening differently, and perhaps hearing more of the sound.

Thank you.
Sat today

[autolyse]

Thank you for the post on pain. It's something I have been sitting with (no pun intended : ) ), and trying to figure out how to live with my chronic back pain in my practice. I appreciated that you acknowledged the feeling one can have when they see everyone seated so perfectly, and for some with physical injuries or limitations, it may not be possible to appear this way. Just that acknowledgement alone was really helpful.

Sat today


Autolyse

[WorkerB]

Thank you for the Zazen for Beginners series. I'm going to type each of the thoughts for today that concluded each video, and will tuck a small print of each randomly in the pages of my daily planner.

Thank you for sharing these lessons!

Gassho,
b.

Sat today

[Houzan]

Thank you for this series. Clarified many points for me.


Michael
SatToday LaH

[Jundo]

Dont get rebirth for one I see no evidence of it nor what it is that is thats reborn. Unless ideas are carried over.

Hi Again,

Yes, I also do not care about, or believe too much, in overly literal views of some rebirth. On the other hand, I see that we are reborn as all things, and all things as us ... every blade of grass, star, baby everywhere ...

And our actions have effects, for good and bad ... both on our own life now, those around us, and even people far away or in the future in this interconnected world.

We have some discussion here:

Buddha-Basics (Part XV) — Karma

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7722-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVI%29-%C2%97-Rebirth

Buddha-Basics (Part XVI) — Rebirth?

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7722-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVI%29-%C2%97-Rebirth

I like to say:

But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLah

ok great I like to think a child should be allowed to grow and question things ty

Not with my arthritis and 220lbs . I would never get up. so I do it in a recliner lying down each day at 2:00 pm for 20 min

Dont get rebirth for one I see no evidence of it nor what it is that is thats reborn. Unless ideas are carried over.

[Jundo]

I had this thought on non attachment where I do see the benefits but Im also seeing it as a selfish act in some ways to become numb to others suffering.I can not seem to be happy totally if even one person suffers in the world this Guilt comes over me like how can I be happy totally when in parts of the world kids are starving. Do I sit and just let it go and be numb to it?

Oh, please do not confuse non-attachment with being detached and uncaring!!

Non-attachment is like the wheel which turns freely, without friction, which may be on the vehicle or ambulance to bring food and comfort to those who need, to help those who suffer. It is something like loving and appreciating those around us, our family and fellow sentient beings, without excess clinging or tension.

Imagine a flower that one full appreciates when present, waters and nurtures, and is sorry to see pass when the season ends. One can fully care for and nurture, feeling appreciation and love of the flower, sad to see it wither. And yet, when the season ends and the flower dies, one also has a heart which senses something more. That is "non-attachment" which does not cling to the outer form, but releases such into that which is beyond mere coming and going.

Something like that.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah