Rapturous Samadhi?

[Jundo]

It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.

And, of course, we goallessly go step by step, staying in healthful directions (sitting, avoiding excess desire, anger etc.), moving along the path. The raw beginner is as much "Buddha" as the fellow practicing 30 (or 30,000) years. We encounter all we encounter along the path, then bow and keep moving. There is no place to "go" because the whole path and every step is Buddha too.

And yet, and yet ... it's likely that the fellow who has been walking 30 years is better skilled at realizing the meaning of "all Buddha," more understanding of "no place to go," and more experienced in keeping in healthful directions step by step than the fellow who has only been practicing for a day.

There is "no place to go," but that does not mean we don't get some place.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I'm checking out your link.
I don't have a particular goal or end in mind when I meditate so my inquiry isn't quite that but...

might not one run into: the goal of not having a goal, achieving the goalless, cultivating goallessness?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

And, of course, we goallessly go step by step, staying in healthful directions (sitting, avoiding excess desire, anger etc.), moving along the path. The raw beginner is as much "Buddha" as the fellow practicing 30 (or 30,000) years. We encounter all we encounter along the path, then bow and keep moving. There is no place to "go" because the whole path and every step is Buddha too.

And yet, and yet ... likely that the fellow who has been walking 30 years is better skilled at realizing the meaning of "all Buddha," more understanding of "no place to go," and more experienced in keeping in healthful directions step by step than the fellow who has only been practicing for a day.

There is "no place to go," but that does not mean we don't get some place.

Gassho, J

STLah

I found this reply pretty poetic.
No goal but still steps.

Gasho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

From what I've read related to the history of Zen at one time these schisms according to school did not exist and Zen was even mixed with Pure Land practices but as schools emerged they became politicized emphasizing differences in competition for adherents. I think possibly some of what is specifically Soto might not have developed if it wasn't for antagonism with Rinzai.

I am not sure that this is a the whole story historically. It is true that in China, Korea and Vietnam, Zen and Pure Land (as well as other practices from esoteric Buddhism and elsewhere) are more mixed together than in Japan. For various historical reasons, Rinzai, Soto and Pure land schools tended to go their own way more in Japan, although there was certainly a lot of mixing and matching in old Japan too (I was just reading yesterday about several lesser known Soto figures in the first generations after Dogen who mixed many traditions into their Soto Zen such as Shingon esoteric practices and Pure Land, and even some modern teachers like Uchiyama Roshi sprinkled in some chanting to Amida and such). Some of the differences among "schools" in Japan was exactly as you say, politics and the need to develop a "brand." That is true.

However, in fact, since the time of the Buddha, it has been more a matter that individual teachers and other practitioners went their own ways even within the same "schools." Theravada Buddhists, Pure Land folks, Rinzai folks and even modern Soto teachers all have their own styles, mixing this and that, and can be rather critical of some others that they disagree with even in the same "school" or lineage. Each is a "mini-schism" , and thus we have the 10,000 (more like 1,000,000) flavors of "Buddhism." It is just human nature. No two chefs cook the chicken soup exactly the same way, and different tongues have different tastes.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I am not sure that this is a the whole story historically. It is true that in China, Korea and Vietnam, Zen and Pure Land (as well as other practices from esoteric Buddhism and elsewhere) are more mixed together than in Japan. For various historical reasons, Rinzai, Soto and Pure land schools tended to go their own way more in Japan, although there was certainly a lot of mixing and matching in old Japan too (I was just reading yesterday about several lesser known Soto figures in the first generations after Dogen who mixed many traditions into their Soto Zen such as Shingon esoteric practices and Pure Land, and even some modern teachers like Uchiyama Roshi sprinkled in some chanting to Amida and such). Some of the differences among "schools" in Japan was exactly as you say, politics and the need to develop a "brand." That is true.

However, in fact, since the time of the Buddha, it has been more a matter that individual teachers and other practitioners went their own ways even within the same "schools." Theravada Buddhists, Pure Land folks, Rinzai folks and even modern Soto teachers all have their own styles, mixing this and that, and can be rather critical of some others that they disagree with even in the same "school" or lineage. Each is a "mini-schism" , and thus we have the 10,000 (more like 1,000,000) flavors of "Buddhism." It is just human nature. No two chefs cook the chicken soup exactly the same way, and different tongues have different tastes.

Gassho, J

STLah

I didn't think about how there could be some significant differences even within the same lineage. That adds some perspective.

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on imaging people mixing and using what works as they interact with each other's practices seems more lively and dynamic whereas paring it all down to a particular school with only certain official teachings within that school feels ossified.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

For some reason I can't quite put my finger on imaging people mixing and using what works as they interact with each other's practices seems more lively and dynamic whereas paring it all down to a particular school with only certain official teachings within that school feels ossified.

One can mix baseball with soccer and get the wonderful "kickball" that my daughter loves in elementary school. As well, football is a lovely sport, tennis is a lovely sport, baseball is a lovely sport and perhaps suited to different players to whom each calls. But here, I teach baseball. We don't play baseball with a football and a tennis racket.

(By the way, some sports are no good for anybody: Soccer with bowling balls perhaps , especially in heading).

https://youtu.be/daRSk6DKZHo

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

One can mix baseball with soccer and get the wonderful "kickball" that my daughter loves in elementary school. As well, football is a lovely sport, tennis is a lovely sport, baseball is a lovely sport and perhaps suited to different players to whom each calls. But here, I teach baseball. We don't play baseball with a football and a tennis racket.

(By the way, some sports are no good for anybody: Soccer with bowling balls perhaps , especially in heading).

https://youtu.be/daRSk6DKZHo

Gassho, J

STLah

Yeah, I came here because in the Buddhist world I've had the most direct contact with Soto, so I appreciate that. I'm also interested in the Buddhist tradition more broadly and sometimes I find some tensions in the points of view so I try to make some sense of it.

Speaking of religion in general, their origins and syncretisms are usually more creative but as time goes on the various needs of becoming more of an establishment have a tendency to squelch some of the spirit of what actually moved people in days of yore.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Speaking of religion in general, their origins and syncretisms are usually more creative but as time goes on the various needs of becoming more of an establishment have a tendency to squelch some of the spirit of what actually moved people in days of yore.

Here too, I am going to say that people are people and have always been. We tend to romanticize the past and the "good old days." I think that Buddhist folks of the past were of all kinds, some very inspirational and many not so much, many in between. You might be pretty disappointed sometimes at how human and ordinary folks of the past where, even some of the folks around whom legends were built, if you ever climbed in a time machine and actually went back. On the other hand, these days I know A LOT of Zen and other Buddhist folks who "have the spirit." Some "mix and match" more than others, some stick more to one game.

I could name the late, great Zen teacher and social activist Bernie Glassman Roshi, from a mixed Rinzai-Soto line, or Shunryu Suzuki who was a pretty straight Soto guy, or Okumura Roshi and his teachers "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki and Uchiyama (apart from his little Pure Land and Christian seasoning) who are all pretty straight Soto, and frankly, 10,000 more.

Some mix and match, some play one game, all try to avoid heading bowling balls.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Here too, I am going to say that people are people and have always been. We tend to romanticize the past and the "good old days." I think that Buddhist folks of the past were of all kinds, some very inspirational and many not so much, many in between. You might be pretty disappointed sometimes at how human and ordinary folks of the past where, even some of the folks around whom legends were built, if you ever climbed in a time machine and actually went back. On the other hand, these days I know A LOT of Zen and other Buddhist folks who "have the spirit." Some "mix and match" more than others, some stick more to one game.

I could name the late, great Zen teacher and social activist Bernie Glassman Roshi, from a mixed Rinzai-Soto line, or Shunryu Suzuki who was a pretty straight Soto guy, or Okumura Roshi and his teachers "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki and Uchiyama (apart from his little Pure Land and Christian seasoning) who are all pretty straight Soto, and frankly, 10,000 more.

Some mix and match, some play one game, all try to avoid heading bowling balls.

Gassho, J

STLah

I don't intend to romanticize the past but whether it's an art movement or a religion it seems like the creativity is in the burgeoning origins and then to a greater or lesser degree degrades with institutionalization.

But, here I'm speaking in very broad generalities and I'm sure access to a time machine would accrue many a' disappointment.

I'll have to look more into some of those teachers you cited, more homework

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I liked your link. I have enjoyed some writings of "homeless Kodo" before. Thanks for the cool find.

Gassho,

Andew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I don't intend to romanticize the past but whether it's an art movement or a religion it seems like the creativity is in the burgeoning origins and then to a greater or lesser degree degrades with institutionalization.

But, here I'm speaking in very broad generalities and I'm sure access to a time machine would accrue many a' disappointment.

I'll have to look more into some of those teachers you cited, more homework

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I would say that western, modern Zen is a hotbed of creativity. People are taking the traditions and bringing them forth in new and innovative ways. I mean, ya even have this Treeleaf online place with their Jukais and Angos.

The only question is which are kickball and which are bowling-soccer.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I would say that western, modern Zen is a hotbed of creativity. People are taking the traditions and bringing them forth in new and innovative ways. I mean, ya even have this Treeleaf online place with their Jukais and Angos.

The only question is which are kickball and which are bowling-soccer.

Gassho, J

STLah

An online Sangha is a creative modern concept and part of what makes it creative is how it steps outside the bounds of what has been the official status quo of things in a way that people wouldn't off the bat have thought of as a legitimate form of Zen. By combining a novel approach with an ancient tradition it succeeds at innovation.

I can't think of a version of Buddhism I'd say is the equivalent of soccer with a bowling ball, can you?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I can't think of a version of Buddhism I'd say is the equivalent of soccer with a bowling ball, can you?

Oh my gosh, don't get me started. (I remind our future Jukai-ees that the "Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists" does not include sincere, constructive criticism meant to point out real problems). The first two are actually ethical and structural (cult) issues rather than doctrinal, but the first group is also prone to strange and harmful beliefs ...

There is the Shambhala cult, led by the brilliant but mentally unstable and abusive Trungpa, his successor who actually murdered people by spreading AIDS during sex with students while knowingly infected, Trungpa's son who proved a chip off the old block, with all the abuses and weirdness there ...

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/encounter-shadow-buddhist-america/

In Zen, the cultish atmosphere that surrounded Eido Shimano, facilitating his sexual and psychological abuse of students ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-zen-predator-of-the-upper-east-side/383831/

Turning from ethical and cult issues to more doctrinal points, some of the California "psycho-babble pop-psychology" that has crept into some corners of Zen really bothers me. On the other side, although one could call it "traditional," some Zen and other Buddhist groups are far too superstitious for my tastes, making all kinds of doubtful and bizarre other-worldly claims.

The Koan Introspection Zazen folks who think that their way is the only way, and advocate an intense "Sweat until ya pop" kind of practice are, I think, misguided for most folks ... and it is more likely to bring someone to a nervous breakdown than "Enlightenment." (This is not meant as criticism of all "Koan Introspection Zazen," only this one sub-group that is just over the top. That "Three Pillars of Zen" book is my usual target of criticism.)

There are a few credentialed teachers out there who are selling, not Zen or Buddhism, but snake oil and Zennish double-talk.

I also get on the folks who teach what they term "Shikantaza" as some kind of milk-toast, just breathe and let thoughts go, relaxation technique. That is all too common in the Soto world.

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Basically, Jundo Cohen is the only one who has got it right! Don't listen to those other folks.

Gassho, Jundo Cohen

SatTodayLAH

[A.J.]

Oh my gosh, don't get me started. (I remind our future Jukai-ees that the "Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists" does not include sincere, constructive criticism meant to point out real problems). The first two are really ethical and structural (cult) issues, but the first group is also prone to strange and harmful beliefs ...

There is the Shambhala cult, led by the brilliant but mentally unstable and abusive Trungpa, his successor who actually murdered people by spreading AIDS during sex with students while knowingly infected, Trungpa's son who proved a chip off the old block, with all the abuses and weirdness there ...

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/encounter-shadow-buddhist-america/

In Zen, the cultish atmosphere that surrounded Eido Shimano, facilitating his sexual and psychological abuse of students ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-zen-predator-of-the-upper-east-side/383831/

Turning from ethical and cult issues to more doctrinal points, some of the California "psycho-babble pop-psychology" that has crept into some corners of Zen really bothers me. On the other side, although one could call it "traditional," some Zen and other Buddhist groups are far too superstitious for my tastes, making all kinds of doubtful and other-worldly claims.

The Koan Introspection Zazen folks who think that their way is the only way, and advocate an intense "Sweat until ya pop" kind of practice are, I think, misguided for most folks ... and it is more likely to bring someone to a nervous breakdown than "Enlightenment." (This is not meant as criticism of all "Koan Introspection Zazen," only this one sub-group that is just over the top. That "Three Pillars of Zen" book is my usual target of criticism.)

There are a few teachers out their who are selling, not Zen or Buddhism, but snake oil and Zennish double-talk.

I also get on the folks who teach what they term "Shikantaza" as some kind of milk-toast, just breathe and let thoughts go, relaxation technique. That is all too common in the Soto world.

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Basically, Jundo Cohen is the only one who has got it right! Don't listen to those other folks.

Gassho, Jundo Cohen

SatTodayLAH

Ah, that explains the bowling ball part of the metaphor.
Maybe the source of creativity here is that it's actually Jundo-ism, joking

[Jundo]

Ah, that explains the bowling ball part of the metaphor.
Maybe the source of creativity here is that it's actually Jundo-ism, joking

Any Buddhist group has always been through the lens of whoever the teacher was, just as any good restaurant kitchen is always through the eye and taste of whoever the chef is in the kitchen, or any orchestra is in the hands of whoever is the conductor on the podium. Many ways to cook good soup, make nice music ... also many ways to serve slop, be out of tune.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I am going to post this again because this caused me to remember my dear Uncle Robert who died already a few months ago, age 90, of Covid-19. I miss him. He was an assistant conductor to Leonard Bernstein, then with the BBC for some time, and he taught me a lot about how the conductor forms the sound of the orchestra, and is not merely a guy keeping time waving a stick.

https://youtu.be/X7iIGLomhJc