Rapturous Samadhi?

[Kyoshin]

I, too, have never experienced a "bliss" state in zazen, but I have many times from other forms of meditation and ritual. I consider it a selling point of zazen, actually; after a while those bliss states become, as Jundo said, a sugary distraction. I have, however, zoned out, gotten super relaxed, felt pain, checked out of my body, had muscle cramps, confronted the horrifying demons of my own anxieties, traumas, and neuroses, and experienced a very deep sense of equanimity, all of which are, to me, more valuable and interesting.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Meian]

Gassho2, Jundo, will do so.

Gassho, meian, st lh

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[Risho]

Jundo you hit the nail on the head; today during zazen lots of thunderclouds but they pass and there’s wide open sky and more come but the wide open sky is always there; that peace, serenity, bliss. To steal from your blender or finger puzzle analogies, just sitting lets the blender stop or the finger puzzle release but chasing that feeling is just going to spin that blender faster; sitting with the clouds, you feel that wide open sky with them, in them, thry are nothing but sky and hopefully that sense of peace is accessible in daily life when those clouds are weaponized! hahaha

gassho

rish
-stlah

[A.J.]

Hmmm. I am actually a bit surprised by the comments from some of our long time Zazen folks that they have never, or rarely, experienced rapture or deep bliss states (I am not speaking about "rapture" to the extent that one feels as if one has just mainlined heroin or even the laughing gas from the dentist, but a simple and powerful feeling of bliss while sitting). It is actually very easy for me to summon up waves of bliss during sitting, putting aside thoughts, centering on breath or the moment or open awareness, then accessing within as if "pushing a button" a feeling of warm bliss. Do so all together, and it is a powerful experience (even that warm feeling between the eyes will often manifest, although I put that down just to my relaxing and becoming aware of that "third eye" spot, and not some mysterious chakra or the like. Focus on the left elbow in such a time, and one experiences "third elbow" ).

The reason that we don't do so in Shikantaza is because it is like the chocolate cake in the refrigerator: It is there, luscious and delicious, but I don't chase after it or make it the "be all end all" of my meal just because it is so sweet and delicious and pleasant. It is part of a well balanced meal, but I accept whatever is healthy and put on my plate, including the bitter but nutritious greens. If I only run to the fridge seeking cake cake cake, sweet sweet sweet, then it is but another drug, and I miss that the rest ... soup and nuts, water and greens, bitter and sweet, welcome and unwelcome ... is the whole meal of life. In Zen, we also see through all the separate dishes and tastes to the Buddha that is serving the meal! That is why we do not emphasize the bliss of chocolate cake, but neither do we run from it if it sometimes manifests for dessert.

I would like to ask folks to try a little experiment during Shikantaza, breaking our usual protocol: After you have been sitting for a few minutes, settled a bit, recall a memory of what it feels like to be blissful. Summon up that memory and the actual sensation of bliss, waves of peace and contentment washing through your heart. Can you do so, and actually summon up feelings of bliss? Be like a "method actor" for awhile, staying with that feeling of bliss as if you are acting out what it feels like to be blissful, a goddess floating on Cloud 9, enveloped in powerful feeling as if you just breathed in some peace gas. Bath in the feeling. Can you do so? Please report back to us.

However, after a minute or two, please put the chocolate cake down, return to just sitting in equanimity with whatever comes.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - Even raptures to rival heroin are possible with some meditations forms, but we consider that a trap almost as bad as actually shooting up.

I too was somewhat surprised (knowing full well that Zen doesn't endorse "chasing" blissful meditative states) that there weren't more personal reflections on integrating such experiences into the context of a broader practice of Zazen, which was in part what I was especially interested in.

I've never chased or even intentionally cultivated (cultivation being a legitimate part of the practice in some schools of Buddhism) these conditions of meditation but have merely found that sometimes sitting straight, breathing through the nostrils and letting the mind be with a soft focus on the moment by moment, begins at some point to feel really good.

Sometimes this feeling grows until there is a strong felt sense of equanimity, serenity, bliss, etc. and it is because of these effects that I've sought input on how to integrate this potential part of Zazen.

P.S. is there perhaps a Zen paranoia about "chasing" meditative states?

Gassho,

Andrew

Satlah

[A.J.]

Oh yeah, and I found that bit about "third elbow" pretty funny, hehe.

[Jundo]

P.S. is there perhaps a Zen paranoia about "chasing" meditative states?

Not paranoia, and more a Zen wisdom about not "chasing."

This all became the topic of today's talk during Zazenkai, although it pretty much just summarizes many of the points made in the discussion here. From the 56:00 mark ...

https://youtu.be/1yVBlRQCUC4

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

Sometimes this feeling grows until there is a strong felt sense of equanimity, serenity, bliss, etc. and it is because of these effects that I've sought input on how to integrate this potential part of Zazen.

P.S. is there perhaps a Zen paranoia about "chasing" meditative states?

As Jundo says, not paranoia, just an observation that human beings tend to be attached to pleasant experiences.

You have got an answer here that you integrate these states by treating them like any other. However, you seem to be looking for a different response.

The equanimity we practice here is to treat each meditation state the same - we experience it and then let it go. But you seem to have found this state of blissful equanimity and then want to treat it as something special. It isn't. Well, no more so than any other.

Other Buddhist traditions may give you a difference answer. The one here remains the same in keeping with how we practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Meian]

In obedience to Jundo's experiment, this morning I brought to mind memories of my kids spending time together, and my younger daughter playing with the cat. These memories have no conflicting emotions attached to them; thus, they brought up my giggly/bubbly reaction without complications, sustained for a couple minutes. I then let go and returned to shikantaza as normal, with its challenges and wanderings.

gassho, meian st lh

[Seikan]

Something Jundo said in his talk during Zazenkai last night resonated with me, but I had to process it a bit before commenting. He mentioned how even if he could live in a state of constant bliss, he wouldn't choose to do so. I fully agree.

I used to become quite frustrated that I was never experiencing any blissful or rapturous states during (or outside of) Zazen. After all, that's why I "signed up" for Buddhism in the first place, right?

I have experienced deep states of calm, like being in the eye of the hurricane of my thoughts, etc., but I can't say that it ever felt rapturous. Those states are enjoyable for the peace they bring, but again, I can't say that I would classify them as blissful or rapturous, but perhaps my expectations are too high? Maybe those states are the most profound "blissful" states that I will ever achieve. If so, that is just fine with me.

Over the years, I've slowly let go of the expectation (for the most part) of achieving anything in particular through practice, and have come to appreciate practice for what it reveals each time I sit on the cushion. I would be lying if I said that there aren't times where I would prefer that my mind is more easily settled or not so terribly sleepy. However, like Jundo said last night, I wouldn't want to just "bliss out" without end. I don't want to escape the world; I just want to experience it more clearly.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-


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[Horin]

Thanks for this interesting thread!
When I sit from time to time I encounter states that feel very extraordinary, very blissful and special. And as I mentioned here occasionally, in the beginning I didn't know how to handle, or I didn't know what this is. It was so great that I wanted to make it permanent... Now I know, because Jundo emphasized it, that these states are not the goal.
As it was said before, there is no state better or more valuable than another, although we may encounter from ordinary to extraordinary, from unpleasant to pleasant everything.
I don't think that dogen, as the stated that our practice is the dharma Gate of ease and joy is something blissful and special that we have to encounter through sitting Zazen. And this is my slight understanding, which may also be completely wrong: As far as I understand, he pointed out that we have no need to arrive through our practice, nothing to archive but sitting in hishiryo beyond the things that are passing by in our heads, and without expectations nor goals, mushotoku, we fulfill our practice on this instant moment - no matter what we face during this time.
It's not like in other traditions like Rinzai where they work with Koan or other methods to "break though" something, to archive a certain state like Satori or Kensho.
Dogen critized this approach in Zazenshin when he said:

“In recent years, however, stupid unreliable people have said, “In the effort of zazen, to attain peace of mind is everything. Just this is the state of tranquility.” This opinion is beneath even scholars of the Small Vehicle.”

So, when we sit in the balanced posture and body and mind calm down, and by this balance, when body and mind drop off, we are receptive for something greater which can be extraordinary and ordinary, because all of what we face is already that ineffable..

I hope my understanding is not entirely wrong

Gassho
Horin

Stlah

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[A.J.]

As Jundo says, not paranoia, just an observation that human beings tend to be attached to pleasant experiences.

You have got an answer here that you integrate these states by treating them like any other. However, you seem to be looking for a different response.

The equanimity we practice here is to treat each meditation state the same - we experience it and then let it go. But you seem to have found this state of blissful equanimity and then want to treat it as something special. It isn't. Well, no more so than any other.

Other Buddhist traditions may give you a difference answer. The one here remains the same in keeping with how we practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

No, I'm not looking for a different answer. I specified that I had a particular interest if anyone had any personal reflections on experiences they had, meaning initial reaction and how it was processed in the larger context of the kind of approach already discussed and not just in the general concept of "ah yes, everything is fleeting, the good and the bad, the pleasant and the unpleasant... etc."

So again, no, not a different answer but potentially a more individual way of relating to that answer rather than what has been (some, not all) the run of the mill buddheme generalities.

Gassho

-Andrew-

Satlah.

[A.J.]

Thanks for this interesting thread!
When I sit from time to time I encounter states that feel very extraordinary, very blissful and special. And as I mentioned here occasionally, in the beginning I didn't know how to handle, or I didn't know what this is. It was so great that I wanted to make it permanent... Now I know, because Jundo emphasized it, that these states are not the goal.
As it was said before, there is no state better or more valuable than another, although we may encounter from ordinary to extraordinary, from unpleasant to pleasant everything.
I don't think that dogen, as the stated that our practice is the dharma Gate of ease and joy is something blissful and special that we have to encounter through sitting Zazen. And this is my slight understanding, which may also be completely wrong: As far as I understand, he pointed out that we have no need to arrive through our practice, nothing to archive but sitting in hishiryo beyond the things that are passing by in our heads, and without expectations nor goals, mushotoku, we fulfill our practice on this instant moment - no matter what we face during this time.
It's not like in other traditions like Rinzai where they work with Koan or other methods to "break though" something, to archive a certain state like Satori or Kensho.
Dogen critized this approach in Zazenshin when he said:

“In recent years, however, stupid unreliable people have said, “In the effort of zazen, to attain peace of mind is everything. Just this is the state of tranquility.” This opinion is beneath even scholars of the Small Vehicle.”

So, when we sit in the balanced posture and body and mind calm down, and by this balance, when body and mind drop off, we are receptive for something greater which can be extraordinary and ordinary, because all of what we face is already that ineffable..

I hope my understanding is not entirely wrong

Gassho
Horin

Stlah

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I like your reflection but wonder about that quote from Dogen. He seems to betray some prejudice against the early vehicle of Buddhism as well as his own Zen neighbors. How special and unique does he think his 'not special' version is? Just a thought off the top of my head.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah.

[Meian]

Andrew, what personal reflections are you looking for? As in, what do you mean by 'personal reflection'? I don't understand your request, I think.

Gassho, meian st lh

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[A.J.]

Something Jundo said in his talk during Zazenkai last night resonated with me, but I had to process it a bit before commenting. He mentioned how even if he could live in a state of constant bliss, he wouldn't choose to do so. I fully agree.

I used to become quite frustrated that I was never experiencing any blissful or rapturous states during (or outside of) Zazen. After all, that's why I "signed up" for Buddhism in the first place, right?

I have experienced deep states of calm, like being in the eye of the hurricane of my thoughts, etc., but I can't say that it ever felt rapturous. Those states are enjoyable for the peace they bring, but again, I can't say that I would classify them as blissful or rapturous, but perhaps my expectations are too high? Maybe those states are the most profound "blissful" states that I will ever achieve. If so, that is just fine with me.

Over the years, I've slowly let go of the expectation (for the most part) of achieving anything in particular through practice, and have come to appreciate practice for what it reveals each time I sit on the cushion. I would be lying if I said that there aren't times where I would prefer that my mind is more easily settled or not so terribly sleepy. However, like Jundo said last night, I wouldn't want to just "bliss out" without end. I don't want to escape the world; I just want to experience it more clearly.

Gassho,
Rob

-st-


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Blissful experiences aren't the goal in my mind though they are nice like walking past some flowers you can smell from the sidewalk. However, in sitting they may hit without seeking and be surprising in strength. Therefore my seeking of various kinds of input as to what to make of them.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah.

[A.J.]

"...what personal reflections are you looking for? As in, what do you mean by 'personal reflection'? I don't understand your request, I think.

Gassho, meian st lh"


Actually in your particular experiment along with your reflection I thought you answered a good part of my question decently. Along with the fairly typical Zen Buddhist responses I've just been looking for something related to actual human experience rather than doctrinal abstractions.

-Andrew-

Gassho

Satlah.