Rapturous Samadhi?

[Horin]

I like your reflection but wonder about that quote from Dogen. He seems to betray some prejudice against the early vehicle of Buddhism as well as his own Zen neighbors. How special and unique does he think his 'not special' version is? Just a thought off the top of my head.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah.

My idea on it is that Dogen Zenji tried to make clear that the effort to attain certain mind states in order to gain personal liberation through the practice is the wrong way. He called it hinayana. Afaik is this exactly describing the aim for self liberation. Our bodhisattva vows aim in another direction. we try to liberate all sentient beings. We take the last place in the queue. And yet, we cannot seperate awakening from the practice of Zazen, according to dogen.

Please correct me if I'm on a wrong track with this



Gassho

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[A.J.]

My idea on it is that Dogen Zenji tried to make clear that the effort to attain certain mind states in order to gain personal liberation through the practice is the wrong way. He called it hinayana. Afaik is this exactly describing the aim for self liberation. Our bodhisattva vows aim in another direction. we try to liberate all sentient beings. We take the last place in the queue. And yet, we cannot seperate awakening from the practice of Zazen, according to dogen.

Please correct me if I'm on a wrong track with this



Gassho

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

Oh, I wouldn't aim at any corrections, just discussion. I like the Mahayana ideal of compassion combined with the Zen sort of aloofness from all fluctuation of feeling and thought but if Dogen's choice of words were along the lines of referring to another school of Zen as "stupid unreliable people" and the early vehicle as "even the hinayana" then he just sounds spiteful of his near kin by choice of verbiage.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah

[Meian]

I sit. And i live.

How my sitting transfers to living, tells me whether my practice is fruitful. How I live the Precepts -- or don't. How I serve others, or don't. Etc.

That's how I see it. That's just me.

My response earlier was in answer to Jundo's request, and as I understood it, that my practice is unbalanced. So, I can correct this now. And if not, I will correct again.

This thread is full of wisdom shared from members and priests. I believe your question has been answered. [emoji4][emoji120]

Gassho, meian, st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[A.J.]

I sit. And i live.

How my sitting transfers to living, tells me whether my practice is fruitful. How I live the Precepts -- or don't. How I serve others, or don't. Etc.

That's how I see it. That's just me.

My response earlier was in answer to Jundo's request, and as I understood it, that my practice is unbalanced. So, I can correct this now. And if not, I will correct again.

This thread is full of wisdom shared from members and priests. I believe your question has been answered. [emoji4][emoji120]

Gassho, meian, st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I appreciate the varieties of answers, both the ones that are generalized through the reiteration of tradition and the one's where there is actually a person in there who is answering.

I enjoy discussion rather than -open book: question, -closed book: question answered.

Life is a process so I don't close the book.

-Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah

[Jundo]

...
As it was said before, there is no state better or more valuable than another, although we may encounter from ordinary to extraordinary, from unpleasant to pleasant everything.
I don't think that dogen, as the stated that our practice is the dharma Gate of ease and joy is something blissful and special that we have to encounter through sitting Zazen. And this is my slight understanding, which may also be completely wrong: As far as I understand, he pointed out that we have no need to arrive through our practice, nothing to archive but sitting in hishiryo beyond the things that are passing by in our heads, and without expectations nor goals, mushotoku, we fulfill our practice on this instant moment - no matter what we face during this time. ...

Lovely reflections, Horin. I just want to underline one point about "no state better or more valuable than another," because that kind of comment is sometimes misunderstood by people. Even though we sit in Zazen allowing all thoughts, emotions and conditions to be "just as they are," that does not mean that we sit there wallowing in thoughts, playing along or stirring up our emotions, encouraging the anger and such just to run wild. Instead, we disentangle from our excess desires, anger, jealousy, fears and other divided thinking, aversions and attractions. Then, this world is still this world, the scary things, the ugly or unpleasant things often remain ... and yet all is quite otherwise, and even the darkness is illuminated.

I like your reflection but wonder about that quote from Dogen. He seems to betray some prejudice against the early vehicle of Buddhism as well as his own Zen neighbors. How special and unique does he think his 'not special' version is? ....

Blissful experiences aren't the goal in my mind though they are nice like walking past some flowers you can smell from the sidewalk. However, in sitting they may hit without seeking and be surprising in strength.

Ah, in Zazen the sitter encounters the pleasant and sometimes the unpleasant, the beautiful and ugly and in between. Walking the streets, we walk past flowers but also rancid trash sometimes. All things are as they are. And yet, by allowing all things to be as they are, the frictions and divisions begin to drop away, and a certain illumination shines through. Suchness appears, a certain Joy, Peace and Wholeness, that shines through passing feelings of pleasant or unpleasant, washing in both the beautiful and ugly, flowers or trash. Nonetheless, Master Dogen's way of "Practice-Enlightenment" is still to do what we can, in this life and world, to plant beautiful flowers and pick up the trash, i.e., to act gently and with compassion, and to avoid the excess desire, anger, jealousy and such.

As to his comments on "Hinayana" and the "Small Vehicle," Dogen knew nothing of the world beyond Japan and a small corner of China, and only knew Buddhist history from the few Buddhist Sutras and legends available at the time. So, usually when Dogen spoke such things he meant an overly scholarly, "armchair," approach, or a goal oriented or self-absorbed kind of practice, not any particular sect or geography.

It was a prejudice common throughout "Mahayana" (so-called "Great Vehicle" Buddhism) that its way was better and more powerful that the Sutta teachings which, supposedly, Shakyamuni taught only to those who "could not handle" the power of the Great Vehicle. Alas, yes, people commonly tend to think that their way is best and special. I prefer to speak of different paths for different feet, varied medicines for varied patients.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Alas, more than three phrases.)

[Horin]

Lovely reflections, Horin. I just want to underline one point about "no state better or more valuable than another," because that kind of comment is sometimes misunderstood by people. Even though we sit in Zazen allowing all thoughts, emotions and conditions to be "just as they are," that does not mean that we sit there wallowing in thoughts, playing along or stirring up our emotions, encouraging the anger and such just to run wild. Instead, we disentangle from our excess desires, anger, jealousy, fears and other divided thinking, aversions and attractions. Then, this world is still this world, the scary things, the ugly or unpleasant things often remain ... and yet all is quite otherwise, and even the darkness is illuminated.



Ah, in Zazen the sitter encounters the pleasant and sometimes the unpleasant, the beautiful and ugly and in between. Walking the streets, we walk past flowers but also rancid trash sometimes. All things are as they are. And yet, by allowing all things to be as they are, the frictions and divisions begin to drop away, and a certain illumination shines through. Suchness appears, a certain Joy, Peace and Wholeness, that shines through passing feelings of pleasant or unpleasant, washing in both the beautiful and ugly, flowers or trash. Nonetheless, Master Dogen's way of "Practice-Enlightenment" is still to do what we can, in this life and world, to plant beautiful flowers and pick up the trash, i.e., to act gently and with compassion, and to avoid the excess desire, anger, jealousy and such.

As to his comments on "Hinayana" and the "Small Vehicle," Dogen knew nothing of the world beyond Japan and a small corner of China, and only knew Buddhist history from the few Buddhist Sutras and legends available at the time. So, usually when Dogen spoke such things he meant an overly scholarly, goal oriented or self-absorbed kind of practice, not any particular sect or geography.

It was a prejudice common throughout "Mahayana" (so-called "Great Vehicle" Buddhism) that its way was better and more powerful that the Sutta teachings which, supposedly, Shakyamuni taught only to those who "could not handle" the power of the Great Vehicle. Alas, yes, people commonly tend to think that their way is best and special. I prefer to speak of different paths for different feet, varied medicines for varied patients.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Alas, more than three phrases.)

Horin
Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[A.J.]

Lovely reflections, Horin. I just want to underline one point about "no state better or more valuable than another," because that kind of comment is sometimes misunderstood by people. Even though we sit in Zazen allowing all thoughts, emotions and conditions to be "just as they are," that does not mean that we sit there wallowing in thoughts, playing along or stirring up our emotions, encouraging the anger and such just to run wild. Instead, we disentangle from our excess desires, anger, jealousy, fears and other divided thinking, aversions and attractions. Then, this world is still this world, the scary things, the ugly or unpleasant things often remain ... and yet all is quite otherwise, and even the darkness is illuminated.



Ah, in Zazen the sitter encounters the pleasant and sometimes the unpleasant, the beautiful and ugly and in between. Walking the streets, we walk past flowers but also rancid trash sometimes. All things are as they are. And yet, by allowing all things to be as they are, the frictions and divisions begin to drop away, and a certain illumination shines through. Suchness appears, a certain Joy, Peace and Wholeness, that shines through passing feelings of pleasant or unpleasant, washing in both the beautiful and ugly, flowers or trash. Nonetheless, Master Dogen's way of "Practice-Enlightenment" is still to do what we can, in this life and world, to plant beautiful flowers and pick up the trash, i.e., to act gently and with compassion, and to avoid the excess desire, anger, jealousy and such.

As to his comments on "Hinayana" and the "Small Vehicle," Dogen knew nothing of the world beyond Japan and a small corner of China, and only knew Buddhist history from the few Buddhist Sutras and legends available at the time. So, usually when Dogen spoke such things he meant an overly scholarly, "armchair," approach, or a goal oriented or self-absorbed kind of practice, not any particular sect or geography.

It was a prejudice common throughout "Mahayana" (so-called "Great Vehicle" Buddhism) that its way was better and more powerful that the Sutta teachings which, supposedly, Shakyamuni taught only to those who "could not handle" the power of the Great Vehicle. Alas, yes, people commonly tend to think that their way is best and special. I prefer to speak of different paths for different feet, varied medicines for varied patients.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Alas, more than three phrases.)

If Dogen said "stupid, unreliable people" in reference to other practitioners it still seems a little much to me but his unfamiliarity with the reality of other schools puts it in some perspective.

Alas, I feel I've emphasized I'm not into chasing meditative states and value whatever happens to be there but that I had a particular curiosity of what people made of the "rapturous" because of the stark nature of experiences stumbled upon at times.

Flowers are flowers, trash is trash.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah.

[shikantazen]

Wanting to talk about rapturous samadhi or other experiences tells me that the practitioner still doesn't believe that Zazen is "good for nothing". Please read master kodo sawaki's quote:

"What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This ‘good for nothing’ has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you actually practice what is truly good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is just good for nothing."

and this:

"Zazen isn’t like a thermometer on which the temperature slowly rises, “Just a little more … yeah … that’s it! Now, I’ve got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere."

More here: https://antaiji.org/en/dharma/attitude_of_zazen/

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

If Dogen said "stupid, unreliable people" in reference to other practitioners it still seems a little much to me but his unfamiliarity with the reality of other schools puts it in some perspective.

These Zen fellows like Dogen are not alone in criticizing others. Notice however that most of the criticisms are directed at wrong ways of practice ... either too bookish or selfish or wrongly directed. It is not about a specific sect or location.

(For those who don't know, a śrāvaka is generally a follower of the "lesser vehicle," and pratyekabuddha are generally those who attain awakening but do not bother to work to enlighten others ... )

The Lotus Sutra, for example says (pretty typical of Mahayana Sutras in doing so).

“Profound and immeasurable is the wisdom of the
buddhas. The gate to their wisdom is hard to enter and difficult to understand.
None of the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas may be capable of understanding it

... Now, in the past the Buddha reviled the śrāvakas—those who yearned
for the inferior teaching—in the presence of the bodhisattvas, but actually
the Buddha inspired them also with the Mahayana. ...

... There are no śrāvakas who attain nirvana.
What you practice is the bodhisattva path;
And if you practice step by step,
You will all become buddhas ...

Amitabha Sutra for the Pure Land folks:

... as followers of the Bodhisattva path they continue to work for the salvation of all beings, and do not fall back to the level of the Lesser Vehicles with their concern limited to individual salvation. ...

... Literalist disciples of the Lesser Vehicle (Shravakas and Pratyeka Buddhas), have few good roots. ...

Or this Tibetan Classic (page 111 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=eosmDwAAQBAJ&dq=sutra+%22followers+of+the+lesser+vehicle%22&q=their+superiority+lesser#v=snippet&q=their%20superiority%20lesser&f=false

I think that these comments are directed at a fictional opponent rather than any actual group. As you might expect, the Theravada folks often say much the same about the Mahayana and Zen folks! Alas.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Not paranoia, and more a Zen wisdom about not "chasing."

This all became the topic of today's talk during Zazenkai, although it pretty much just summarizes many of the points made in the discussion here. From the 56:00 mark ...

https://youtu.be/1yVBlRQCUC4

Gassho, J

STLah

I enjoyed the dharma talk. Because of a spotty connection reliant on WiFi hotspots I just listened to it.

Since there is this three sacred sentence rule I have been endeavoring to the best of my ability to keep my comments terse, but I will just say that it seems while Zen doesn't encourage the sukha that can naturally develop from a concentrated mind it has a good grounded context for the appearance and disappearance of such.

Gassho,

=Andrew=

Satlah

[A.J.]

Wanting to talk about rapturous samadhi or other experiences tells me that the practitioner still doesn't believe that Zazen is "good for nothing". Please read master kodo sawaki's quote:

"What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This ‘good for nothing’ has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you actually practice what is truly good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is just good for nothing."

and this:

"Zazen isn’t like a thermometer on which the temperature slowly rises, “Just a little more … yeah … that’s it! Now, I’ve got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere."

More here: https://antaiji.org/en/dharma/attitude_of_zazen/

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I think we should be able to discuss questions that arise from anything that comes up in the experience of practice. Given that sukha is a concept in the ancient meditation traditions from which Zen ultimately derives I think questions related to it are valid.

This discomfort around such a topic is what I'm beginning to term: Zen paranoia.

Gassho,

Andrew.

Satlah

[Jundo]

.

This discomfort around such a topic is what I'm beginning to term: Zen paranoia.

I am sure that there is no discomfort. It is just that we handle this in our way. In fact, such way is beyond "comfort vs. discomfort," which are just human ratings and subjective emotions existing between the ears.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[A.J.]

These Zen fellows like Dogen are not alone in criticizing others. Notice however that most of the criticisms are directed at wrong ways of practice ... either too bookish or selfish or wrongly directed. It is not about a specific sect or location.

(For those who don't know, a śrāvaka is generally a follower of the "lesser vehicle," and pratyekabuddha are generally those who attain awakening but do not bother to work to enlighten others ... )

The Lotus Sutra, for example says (pretty typical of Mahayana Sutras in doing so).



Amitabha Sutra for the Pure Land folks:



Or this Tibetan Classic (page 111 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=eosmDwAAQBAJ&dq=sutra+%22followers+of+the+lesser+vehicle%22&q=their+superiority+lesser#v=snippet&q=their%20superiority%20lesser&f=false

I think that these comments are directed at a fictional opponent rather than any actual group. As you might expect, the Theravada folks often say much the same about the Mahayana and Zen folks! Alas.

Gassho, J

STLah

Some of the contentious characterizations within schools of Buddhism about what is conceived of as outside the pale get a little funny. I'm easily distracted by them as a modern person with modern sensibilities.

Funny enough, in those Sutras it sounds like even the Buddhas have a pyramid scheme based on who is more compassion based than whom.... "anything you can do I can do metta".
Hehe.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Funny enough, in those Sutras it sounds like even the Buddhas have a pyramid scheme based on who is more compassion based than whom.... "anything you can do I can do metta".
Hehe.

[A.J.]

I am sure that there is no discomfort. It is just that we handle this in our way. In fact, such way is beyond "comfort vs. discomfort."

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

By discomfort I basically mean a knee-jerk anxiety that makes it so someone can't ask a question about an experience well-understood by the tradition to sometimes come about through samadhi without suspicions about "not really getting it... la, la, la."

I would find a reaction that was automatic and stereotypical to that same degree to be censorial in any other context about any other subject and therefore "Zen paranoia" is my name for this underlying worry that someone might actually run into a mystical moment.

For me, I try to make inquiries based on what comes up naturally in recent practice so even my words are only an articulated version of what is there.

Gassho,

Andrew

Satlah