Rapturous Samadhi?

[Inshin]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by you got stuck in samatha meditation since my understanding is that samatha merely means calm abiding and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice. I'm glad you found some closure after your depression.

Gassho,

Andrew

Satlah

Sorry Andrew for confusion, I'm still learning all the terminology. What I meant was Ānāpānasati, the method when one just focuses on the point between the mouth and the nose where breath enters and leaves. I guess Samatha has much broader application.

[Jundo]

The gist of the idea of samatha seems like it is a calmness of mind in order to work in conjunction with vipassana, the gist of which would just be insight into one's own mind. I know the systematizers get all elaborate with it later but that basic formulation doesn't seem particularly contrary to shikantaza. Doesn't shikantaza also have a tendency for concentration (focusing on just sitting is focusing on something), which calms the blender of the mind and allows you to have some insight into those waters?

...

Is the scruple primarily with the systematic stages that developed later?

I might describe Shikantaza as a light and easy settling and calming of thoughts as we disentangle from engaging with them, so one might call that some small "concentration." However it is not the deep levels of concentration that some forms of meditation seek (although, as we have been discussing, such happens in Shikantaza too sometimes, amid all that happens).

As well, in Shikantaza, we do not emphasize stages ... and only just this, and just this, and just this ...


Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Risho]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

tell that to dogen let alone every other zen teacher on the planet :-p

gassho

risho
-st

[Meitou]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Meitou
Sat lah

[Jundo]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Yes, maybe time to give it all a rest, what needs to be said being said.

Gassho, J

ST+lah

[Tairin]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

I was thinking the same.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[A.J.]

Sorry Andrew for confusion, I'm still learning all the terminology. What I meant was Ānāpānasati, the method when one just focuses on the point between the mouth and the nose where breath enters and leaves. I guess Samatha has much broader application.

No worries, I'm just trying to understand the distinctions and similarities being drawn.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I might describe Shikantaza as a light and easy settling and calming of thoughts as we disentangle from engaging with them, so one might call that some small "concentration." However it is not the deep levels of concentration that some forms of meditation seek (although, as we have been discussing, such happens in Shikantaza too sometimes, amid all that happens).

As well, in Shikantaza, we do not emphasize stages ... and only just this, and just this, and just this ...


Gassho, J

STLah

I wonder if the meditative stages in the Theravadan traditions belong to a later stratum. Just concentrating, being calm and allowing insight doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Shikantaza sounds like a broad form of concentration.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Shobogenzo is a lot of words. Tao Te Ching is a lot of words. Come to think of it, Sutras are just a lot of words

Gassho,

Satlah,

Andrew

[A.J.]

tell that to dogen let alone every other zen teacher on the planet :-p

gassho

risho
-st

Something about the insufficiency of language to describe inspires so much speech.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I wonder if the meditative stages in the Theravadan traditions belong to a later stratum. Just concentrating, being calm and allowing insight doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Shikantaza sounds like a broad form of concentration.

!Time now to sit and find out! ...

... as the Zen folks are apt to say when the talk gets to such a point.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Gassho2, meian, st lh

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[Seishin]

Before I joined Treeleaf and based purely on book study of Zen I was under the impression that I would achieved joy and bliss on the zafu and that would overflow into daily life, it never occurred and never did.

Joining Treeleaf I learnt that this was not the way of Soto Zen and Shikantaza, so I learned to sit expecting nothing, try to let the thoughts come and go, not get tangled up and after 1423 continuous days of sitting (I have missed one day since joining here) I have had just one short moment of feeling totally calm with just a smidging of bliss, gone in seconds.

During last weeks Zazenkai after the talk I tried to open my heart to a blissful feeling and each day of this week to no avail, such is suchness.

Sat

[A.J.]

!Time now to sit and find out! ...

... as the Zen folks are apt to say when the talk gets to such a point.

Gassho, J

STLah

I shall continue to sit.
It looks like I'll need to continue researching how these distinctions between meditation styles that seem fluid to me are traditionally parsed through my own study so I'll do that as well.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah