Rapturous Samadhi?

[A.J.]

Any Buddhist group has always been through the lens of whoever the teacher was, just as any good restaurant kitchen is always through the eye and taste of whoever the chef is in the kitchen, or any orchestra is in the hands of whoever is the conductor on the podium. Many ways to cook good soup, make nice music ... also many ways to serve slop, be out of tune.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - I am going to post this again because this caused me to remember my dear Uncle Robert who died already a few months ago, age 90, of Covid-19. I miss him. He was an assistant conductor to Leonard Bernstein, then with the BBC for some time, and he taught me a lot about how the conductor forms the sound of the orchestra, and is not merely a guy keeping time waving a stick.

https://youtu.be/X7iIGLomhJc

... Sorry about your uncle.

As someone who enjoys cooking I wonder if their might actually be more potential ways to serve slop than to serve a good meal.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Inshin]

One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

Gassho
Sat

[Shinshi]

One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

Gassho
Sat

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Kyōsen]

I've experienced the "bliss" of the Jhanas, as well as what they give away to, the happiness and then serenity and then that ... non-abiding? I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was a dropping of the subject/object dualism and it was very nice (then it was over and the appearance of a separate self arose again). Most of the time when I sit I don't experience jhanic bliss, but sometimes I'll catch a whiff of it before it vanishes and, still, I keep sitting and I've learned to really appreciate just sitting more than I enjoyed the bliss.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Doshin]

First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

Doshin
St and mellow

[Jundo]

One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

Gassho
Sat

Ania, thank you for sharing that. You also posted a very lovely story elsewhere around here yesterday, and I hope it is okay if I retell it.

I used to "bliss out on breath" using Samatha meditation, headphones on, zero distractions, perfect concentration. Then I've started learning Zazen in on of the centers. The energy in the room, the group of like minded people, the intention, all conditions were perfect. Once I was having a really good Zazen. I was not only able to arrive at the still quiet spot, but also to witness gratitude and joy arising. And then suddenly a group a youth must have stopped outside the building. They were talking very loudly about hassling and money, laughing and swearing. It was as if they were in the room with us. With that distraction the joy faded. Oh no! How I wanted to hang a little longer to that feeling! Frustration arose. And then I have remembered Thay's quote : "it's not the impermanence that makes us suffer. What makes us suffer is wanting things to be permanent when they are not." So I let the joy go. I sent a little metha to those loud guys. I focused on the sound of their voices, the cheerful laughter. Frustration dissappeard, there were only sounds. There was laugher, there was swearing, there was a siren in the distance, there was breathing, there was wind, there was in and out, and there's no in and out. There simply IS. And it felt like I could sit for hours with this ever-changing IS. Zen opens us up in mysterious ways...

May You be well
Gassho

Gassho, J

STLah

[Risho]

First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

Doshin
St and mellow

hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

gassho

rish
-stlah

[Jundo]

hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

gassho

rish
-stlah

https://youtu.be/35Odk1jBzWM

Gassho, J

STLah

[Doshin]

hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

gassho

rish
-stlah

Risho, I am good with not being right, I am sure it is not the first time! Whatever it is, it has worked for me so far. .I’ll just keep sitting, maybe if not this time, then the next

Doshin
St

[A.J.]

One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

Gassho
Sat

I'm not quite sure what you mean by you got stuck in samatha meditation since my understanding is that samatha merely means calm abiding and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice. I'm glad you found some closure after your depression.

Gassho,

Andrew

Satlah

[A.J.]

I've experienced the "bliss" of the Jhanas, as well as what they give away to, the happiness and then serenity and then that ... non-abiding? I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was a dropping of the subject/object dualism and it was very nice (then it was over and the appearance of a separate self arose again). Most of the time when I sit I don't experience jhanic bliss, but sometimes I'll catch a whiff of it before it vanishes and, still, I keep sitting and I've learned to really appreciate just sitting more than I enjoyed the bliss.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

At first mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers, then finally mountains are once again mountains and rivers are once again rivers. Fat Buddha returns to the market place with a jug of wine.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

Doshin
St and mellow

I wouldn't say there's a wrong for something like this. People have different kinds of experiences and just try to make sense out of them.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

.... and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice ...

Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

Gassho, J

STLah

The gist of the idea of samatha seems like it is a calmness of mind in order to work in conjunction with vipassana, the gist of which would just be insight into one's own mind. I know the systematizers get all elaborate with it later but that basic formulation doesn't seem particularly contrary to shikantaza. Doesn't shikantaza also have a tendency for concentration (focusing on just sitting is focusing on something), which calms the blender of the mind and allows you to have some insight into those waters?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Is the scruple primarily with the systematic stages that developed later?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah