Rapturous Samadhi?

[A.J.]

Also ... and god forbid they stumble upon kensho.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Hi Andrew,

Have we not tried to answer in some detail?

We don't worry about, yet very much welcome, such Blissful moments. Kensho as well. These are treasured.

Gassho, Jundo

SaTTodayLAH

[Kokuu]

By discomfort I basically mean a knee-jerk anxiety that makes it so someone can't ask a question about an experience well-understood by the tradition to sometimes come about through samadhi without suspicions about "not really getting it... la, la, la."

I would find a reaction that was automatic and stereotypical to that same degree to be censorial in any other context about any other subject and therefore "Zen paranoia" is my name for this underlying worry that someone might actually run into a mystical moment.

Hi Andrew

I don't see that there has been any censoring and I think that characterising responses as 'pat Buddhism' might be a little unkind. It is not how I would wish to introduce myself to a new sangha.

However, the Zen approach does differ to that of many other Buddhist traditions. We do not say that we are the correct or true tradition but our approach is how we practice.

When sukha arises for me, I don't see it as anything mystical, but just something that can arise in sitting in the same way as pain or boredom. That way it is fully integrated into the whole of life, complete just as it is without anything lacking. I do not see sukha and kensho as in anyway equivalent. One is a transitory blissful state, whereas kensho is seeing into the nature of reality itself.

Some of the contentious characterizations within schools of Buddhism about what is conceived of as outside the pale get a little funny. I'm easily distracted by them as a modern person with modern sensibilities.

Funny enough, in those Sutras it sounds like even the Buddhas have a pyramid scheme based on who is more compassion based than whom.... "anything you can do I can do metta".
Hehe.

I must admit it is something I am really not fond of either and, as much as I love Dōgen, his comments about 'pitiful people' really do grate.

With regard to Mahayana sutras, in the early days of Mahayana they were trying to establish themselves as a school or new philosophical strand of Buddhism so I guess some degree of setting themselves apart is understandable. However, I agree that terming pre-Mahayana practice as 'Hinayana' is something I have always found troubling, and it continues to be taught like that in many places.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Ryumon]

I would find a reaction that was automatic and stereotypical to that same degree to be censorial in any other context about any other subject and therefore "Zen paranoia" is my name for this underlying worry that someone might actually run into a mystical moment.

It's not that there is a work that someone might have a mystical moment - or a kensho experience - it's just that in this specific flavor of Zen, we don't chase after such experiences. We accept them, and then move on. They aren't signs that we're somehow achieving anything, because the only achievement we seek is to sit and accept what arises.

Gassho,

Kirk

[A.J.]

Hi Andrew

I don't see that there has been any censoring and I think that characterising responses as 'pat Buddhism' might be a little unkind. It is not how I would wish to introduce myself to a new sangha.

However, the Zen approach does differ to that of many other Buddhist traditions. We do not say that we are the correct or true tradition but our approach is how we practice.

When sukha arises for me, I don't see it as anything mystical, but just something that can arise in sitting in the same way as pain or boredom. That way it is fully integrated into the whole of life, complete just as it is without anything lacking. I do not see sukha and kensho as in anyway equivalent. One is a transitory blissful state, whereas kensho is seeing into the nature of reality itself.




I must admit it is something I am really not fond of either and, as much as I love Dōgen, his comments about 'pitiful people' really do grate.

With regard to Mahayana sutras, in the early days of Mahayana they were trying to establish themselves as a school or new philosophical strand of Buddhism so I guess some degree of setting themselves apart is understandable. However, I agree that terming pre-Mahayana practice as 'Hinayana' is something I have always found troubling, and it continues to be taught like that in many places.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

In referring to a censorial attitude I meant only those few posts which in some way denigrated the asking of the question itself as demonstrating a lack of special Zen understanding and did not by any means mean the majority of responses.

In referring to buddhemes or "pat Buddhism" I mean only to constructively critique the automaticity of reiterating official rhetoric (which considering that Zen of old did that for it's time... take, for instance, Joshu saying that a dog doesn't have Buddha nature...I think that Zen of now could use some of it) so I don't particularly consider critique itself to be unkind.

I find I learn more from discussing where I find "the rub" in a topic rather than relishing in what we all already find similarity in and having Kumbaya (though I am glad to see someone shares my hesitance regarding Dogen's "unkind" words at times).

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah

[A.J.]

Hi Andrew,

Have we not tried to answer in some detail?

We don't worry about, yet very much welcome, such Blissful moments. Kensho as well. These are treasured.

Gassho, Jundo

SaTTodayLAH

Yes, and between the variety of responses here and your dharma talk I'm pretty happy about it.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah

[A.J.]

It's not that there is a work that someone might have a mystical moment - or a kensho experience - it's just that in this specific flavor of Zen, we don't chase after such experiences. We accept them, and then move on. They aren't signs that we're somehow achieving anything, because the only achievement we seek is to sit and accept what arises.

Gassho,

Kirk

I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Onka]

Hi Andrew
My first reply to you was a bit dismissive and I apologise for that however I didn't lie, Shikantaza is very physically painful for me.
I've been quite unwell this year and sat a LOT in hospital on the four occasions I ended up there. I didn't mention it in my initial response to you because you were asking about rapturous samadhi but yes I have had a Kensho experience but I didn't really know it. It was only after describing it to Jundo privately that he named it for me. My reaction, which I'm sure he expected was "oh well, I'll just keep sitting" or something similar. Yes, it has had a profound impact on me. Yes, I would say that it changed me permanently in a positive way, but in no way would I describe it as rapturous or blissful. I don't chase it, I still find Shikantaza extremely painful, and I'm sure I still annoy my partner just as much as before.
I didn't want to divulge this publicly but as the topic has come up in the Zazenkai as well I thought that you needed a reply that wasn't too "Zenny".
Be well my friend
Gassho
Onka
ST

[A.J.]

Hi Andrew
My first reply to you was a bit dismissive and I apologise for that however I didn't lie, Shikantaza is very physically painful for me.
I've been quite unwell this year and sat a LOT in hospital on the four occasions I ended up there. I didn't mention it in my initial response to you because you were asking about rapturous samadhi but yes I have had a Kensho experience but I didn't really know it. It was only after describing it to Jundo privately that he named it for me. My reaction, which I'm sure he expected was "oh well, I'll just keep sitting" or something similar. Yes, it has had a profound impact on me. Yes, I would say that it changed me permanently in a positive way, but in no way would I describe it as rapturous or blissful. I don't chase it, I still find Shikantaza extremely painful, and I'm sure I still annoy my partner just as much as before.
I didn't want to divulge this publicly but as the topic has come up in the Zazenkai as well I thought that you needed a reply that wasn't too "Zenny".
Be well my friend
Gassho
Onka
ST

Thank you for your thoughts.

Gassho,

-Andrew-

Satlah

[Ryumon]

I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.

From what I've read, Rinzia tends to cultivate these experiences, and expects them to occur as stages along the path. But this is just what I understand from reading, most recently, Peter Matthiesen's Nine-Headed Dragon River, when he got into Rinzai zen early on. (He later switched to Soto zen.)

I wouldn't use the term "indifference;" that sounds a bit judgmental. I'd say simply acceptance of what happens, without giving it any special value.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Kokuu]

I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.

It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.

I came to Treeleaf from Tibetan Buddhism and found I had to drop a lot of what I thought I knew about meditation in order to appreciate Zen practice.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[shikantazen]

Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Meian]

In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

Gassho2, meian st lh


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[A.J.]

From what I've read, Rinzia tends to cultivate these experiences, and expects them to occur as stages along the path. But this is just what I understand from reading, most recently, Peter Matthiesen's Nine-Headed Dragon River, when he got into Rinzai zen early on. (He later switched to Soto zen.)

I wouldn't use the term "indifference;" that sounds a bit judgmental. I'd say simply acceptance of what happens, without giving it any special value.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

From what I've read related to the history of Zen at one time these schisms according to school did not exist and Zen was even mixed with Pure Land practices but as schools emerged they became politicized emphasizing differences in competition for adherents. I think possibly some of what is specifically Soto might not have developed if it wasn't for antagonism with Rinzai.

"Divine indifference" sounds similar to "acceptance without special value" to me but nevertheless, no judgement, just bouncing off ideas and trying to learn something.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.

I came to Treeleaf from Tibetan Buddhism and found I had to drop a lot of what I thought I knew about meditation in order to appreciate Zen practice.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I spent a few years going to a Soto temple regularly when I lived near one, checked out Shambhala for a year before they had their scandal, as well as dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism and Vipassana. My reading has been pretty broad but I don't necessarily think I know much about meditation. I just explore perspective, practice and see what comes up.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah