Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[SNPII]

I have never heard of anyone becoming so slow in breathing during Shikantaza as to actually become oxygen deprived, let alone pass out or do some damage. There may be Indian and other forms of intense meditation where something like that could happen, but Shikantaza is so ordinary and gentle ... I can't imagine. The body would really let you know ... by gasping, by headache or light headedness, feeling like fainting ... if you truly were becoming oxygen deprived. You should just be breathing like you are sitting on the bus looking out the window at passing scenery, i.e., normally.

It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it. However, if there really are some physical symptoms of oxygen deprivation, that is a different story.

The only other thing I can think of (and I am reaching here) is someone who suffers from sleep apnea. That should be checked by a doctor if you think it a possibility. I am finding some small amount of discussion online of that (and, in fact, meditation seems to be commonly used as a treatment for apnea, although I do not know a lot about it). This fellow is discussing what seems to be an intense form of Kundalini meditation ...



In the case of anything like that, talk to your doctor! However, Shikantaza is very far from any kind of intense meditation like that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

I'm gonna stay with the agreement that maybe I am latching onto this more than I should.

Maybe I should just enjoy the calmness I'm not so used to experiencing more and sit with that.[emoji6]

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

Kenny! Thanks for bringing this up! I often have the same experience when sitting. My respirations seem to become so calm I am almost startled and wondering if I'm getting enough oxygen.

I work in healthcare and monitor things like this on a regular basis. I have not counted my own respirations while meditating as it is a very innacurate thing to do and would defeat the purpose of sitting.

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

I have never heard of anyone becoming so slow in breathing during Shikantaza as to actually become oxygen deprived, let alone pass out or do some damage. There may be Indian and other forms of intense meditation where something like that could happen, but Shikantaza is so ordinary and gentle ... I can't imagine. The body would really let you know ... by gasping, by headache or light headedness, feeling like fainting ... if you truly were becoming oxygen deprived. You should just be breathing like you are sitting on the bus looking out the window at passing scenery, i.e., normally.

It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it. However, if there really are some physical symptoms of oxygen deprivation, that is a different story.

The only other thing I can think of (and I am reaching here) is someone who suffers from sleep apnea. That should be checked by a doctor if you think it a possibility. I am finding some small amount of discussion online of that (and, in fact, meditation seems to be commonly used as a treatment for apnea, although I do not know a lot about it). This fellow is discussing what seems to be an intense form of Kundalini meditation ...

The other cause is called “central,” in which the cessation of breathing is caused because the brain doesn’t to send the message to breathe. As far as I know, when the oxygen-carbon dioxide balance gets bad enough, the brain eventually restarts the breathing. Talk to your doctor.

I had been meditating for years with no difficulties even though having both obstructive and central sleep apnea, fortunately mild. I had never heard of kundalini in either the Shaivist or Thelemite forms, so when its physical symptoms started while in meditation one day, I was startled and stopped the process. Once started, Kundalini never stops, and sometimes takes years to complete because it seems to involve a complete rebuilding of the autonomic nervous system.

...

My doctor was of no help. He sent me to a specialist who refused to listen to my symptoms, and to another who simply dismissed them. Eventually two doctors diagnosed it as atrial fibrillation, but it was anomalous because the shaking happened only when I was asleep, and by the time I awoke enough to start a recording device the shaking stopped. I could stop the shaking by taking 20 deep breaths, by massaging my carotid artery (not a good idea, because it could dislodge plaque which might cause a stroke) or by taking a deep breath and “bearing down” this latter is a known technique called the Valsalva maneuver.

The symptoms have abated over time, and their severity has lessened to a moderate shaking which no longer upsets me. It happens now about three times a week. My current doctors insist that it’s not atrial fib, but have given me no other diagnosis. Otherwise I’m fine. I meditate now only while sitting up so that my relaxed jaw does not obstruct my airways. And yoga Nidra? Forget it!

So, if you snore, and especially if you stop breathing while you sleep, I suggest that you be most careful in your meditations, and do not attempt yoga Nidra.

https://tedmacgillivray.com/2012/09/...eally-careful/

In the case of anything like that, talk to your doctor! However, Shikantaza is very far from any kind of intense meditation like that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

[SNPII]

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Kenny! Thanks for bringing this up! I often have the same experience when sitting. My respirations seem to become so calm I am almost startled and wondering if I'm getting enough oxygen.

I work in healthcare and monitor things like this on a regular basis. I have not counted my own respirations while meditating as it is a very innacurate thing to do and would defeat the purpose of sitting.

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

Yes, just sit like you are on the bus watching the scenery out the window. Nothing strange should happen to the breath.

Gassho, J

STLAH

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Ahh, but in zazen we are neither like a monkey or like a sloth ... even though we are calm and still, we are still engaged with our body, still engaged with our breath. So try not to be ridge like a stick or loose like a ramen noodle. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

As far as I can tell, yes! I try to envision a rope pulling my head up directly above and the rest of my body following suit, then relaxing the rest of my body as if it were "hanging" off of my now-straightened spine. I of course also do the rocking back and forth to make sure that "up" is actually up. Once in awhile I notice I am slouching a little and correct it, but it never feels like a major adjustment. Even then, I could be doing something a little wrong, like leaning forward or back unintentionally or my spine not actually really being straight despite it feeling like it is.

Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today

Hmmm, hard to say then. It might be that, as if one sloaches it can interfer with the abdomen.

Maybe try and experiment and keep an eye on your shoulders. Once you move from side to side to find your alignment, roll your shoulders back, dropping your shoulder blades. This can help straighten the spine, but also open the chest. Give it a try and see if it helps with the breathe.

This again is not the normal procedure, but jist rather a test to see if your situation is related to posture. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hmmm. I would just say to be breathing from the diaphram all through Zazen. It is natural that, as one relaxes, the breaths become slower and lighter. Sometimes it seems that I might breathe less than twice a minutes.

However, are you actually then gasping for breath, and feel like you are holding your breath in a pool? Or is it only that you suddenly focus on your breath and panic or become obsessed with it a bit? If the latter, it is just your mind. If the former, it is actually a physical breath issue.

Just relax and breathe. Normal, natural breathing. You do it all day, sitting or standing, so what is different now? There should be nothing different about breathing in Zazen and just breathing while sitting, so I am not sure what could be causing this. It should be the same as breathing while on the sofa or breathing on the bus.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Sekiyuu]

As far as I can tell, yes! I try to envision a rope pulling my head up directly above and the rest of my body following suit, then relaxing the rest of my body as if it were "hanging" off of my now-straightened spine. I of course also do the rocking back and forth to make sure that "up" is actually up. Once in awhile I notice I am slouching a little and correct it, but it never feels like a major adjustment. Even then, I could be doing something a little wrong, like leaning forward or back unintentionally or my spine not actually really being straight despite it feeling like it is.

Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today

I've been sitting regularly (missing a few days) for a month now, and I'm finding I still have a bit of trouble with breathing. I reviewed the Sit-a-Long about breath (here) to help me but I think I could use a tiny bit more advice.

I keep catching myself taking such shallow breaths that I'm barely breathing at all. Ideally I should just let those breaths be short, but honestly it feels like I'd just stop breathing entirely. My body doesn't really appreciate that, so I start intentionally taking very deep breaths. Maybe it's the rush of oxygen, or endorphins or something, but it just feels so much better to breathe very deeply and slowly, but that unfortunately takes a bit of intention. Any specific advice here?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Hey Kenny,

The first thing that comes to mind is your posture ... are you keeping a natural straight spine?

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

I've been sitting regularly (missing a few days) for a month now, and I'm finding I still have a bit of trouble with breathing. I reviewed the Sit-a-Long about breath (here) to help me but I think I could use a tiny bit more advice.

I keep catching myself taking such shallow breaths that I'm barely breathing at all. Ideally I should just let those breaths be short, but honestly it feels like I'd just stop breathing entirely. My body doesn't really appreciate that, so I start intentionally taking very deep breaths. Maybe it's the rush of oxygen, or endorphins or something, but it just feels so much better to breathe very deeply and slowly, but that unfortunately takes a bit of intention. Any specific advice here?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Shinshi]

Choosing to hold your hands behind your back to eschew tradition is the same as holding your hands in the mudra to embrace tradition. No matter which, a choice is being made, thought of, mulled over, decided, questioned, etc. Choosing to simply follow the rituals whether we know what the significance is yet or not removes the questioning from the action, which I feel is the point.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[SNPII]

Many thanks for the cloud reference and seeing through them at some point in practice. I cannot say I see through them completely quite yet, but I do have an appreciation now as to the clouds and crystal clear blue luminescent sky co existing! It brings joy!

Sat2daymanyX's

In Sincerity
Shane

[Meitou]

Thanks, Jundo. I forgot to throw in that important bit!

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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Both of your posts here really resonate. Beautiful words Geika, thank you.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

Thanks, Jundo. I forgot to throw in that important bit!

I am personally very minimal on ritual, but I only became that way after a few years of getting them in my muscle memory.

The result of that is sometimes shashu while walking to the fridge, bowing to the toilet, and sometimes just sitting straight on the cushion for zazen and not bowing or doing any ritual until after the bell, or even at all. Sometimes I chant the Heart Sutra without thinking, and sometimes before or after sitting. I really just kind of go with how practice strikes me at each moment. I enjoy it all and have a great love of zen ritual as a practice, even the long form stuff. It merges with my more fluid daily life in a way that becomes natural with time. And I'm always ready for a formal zazenkai, robes and all.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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I too like this Geika, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH