Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I suspected as much; I have been doing my best to follow each teaching as I receive it, and I suspect that I will find balance somewhere including all of them with practice.

Love the cat by the way!

Gassho,
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

[Tomás ESP]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly

Thank you for sharing Kelly, I am glad you enjoyed it

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly

[Chikyou]

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

This is similar to my experience as well; I have tried various forms of meditation (not Zazen, but several attempts at other forms of meditation, most recently western "mindfulness", over the years) and none of it really made much sense to me. When I tried Shikantaza, it was like a light finally turned on. It just makes sense in a way nothing else has.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

[Jundo]

That is correct, Kelly.

And, of course, there are many kinds of "meditation" in the world, of which Zazen is just one flavor.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you for your answer!

To check my understanding: Zazen is the practice overall, and shikantaza is the specific type of zazen that we practice, do I understand correctly?

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

I had sat half lotus for years. Simultaneously, I had back pain..sometimes bad...sometimes not so bad....Always got worse when sitting for long periods. Then I switched to Burmese (The Taoists call this the Immortal Posture) and my back pain went away during long sits. I had to accept that my body changed and I found it a good thing to listen to the body. I found that as long as the posture is stable and supports my body and mind to keep still, it supports my practice. I still will use half-lotus from time to time, but not my primary way anymore.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Anyone got any tips from transitioning from sitting in seiza to burmese? I'm quite an athletic person but have always had awful flexibility...

When I first tried sitting, I got my sitting all wrong (not understanding what 'acceptable' sitting positions were) and was sitting in a generaly cross legged position (I understand why it's not recommended as it was not nice to sit in for such a long period of time...). Once I realised this was wrong, I just sat in seiza, as I couldn't do anything else. I was trying to improve this but quite quickly injured my hip , so held off for a while.

As I don't really have any real medical conditions or bad injuries, feel I should be able to sit in a position that requires more flexibility with a bit of effort. I have a fairly decent knowledge of things like this as I'm a PE teacher and practiced yoga on and off for a few years. Looking more for specific stretches in a yoga routine or modified sitting positions that I could do while reading or relaxing. Or even some tips that might help actually sitting burmese a bit easier.

Just tried sitting in burmese now though, and it's the closest I've ever been to sitting in an almost comfortable position, but wouldn't be able to do it for more than 5 minutes still

* Edited just to say it feels like my right psoas is really tight when sitting burmese, so seems like a problem relating to that

Sorry to run long

Gassho
Ross
stlah

When you tried seiza, were you using a bench? Those help tremendously imho. As for specific yoga stretches, I find Agnistambhasana (double-pigeon or firelog pose) quite helpful for the hips. It is easy to vary the intensity by leaning forward or back in the pose. If you are inflexible, you will definitely feel an intense stretch in your hips!

Don't think that a specific posture should be a "goal" -- work with your own body and its limitations. More flexibility is nice, but there's nothing magical in the full lotus. I used to be able to sit that way but can't anymore due to injuries. That upset me at first, but I just had to let go of that unnecessary attachment. Fwiw, I find half lotus unbalanced and uncomfortable. Burmese tends to make my back ache. Generally I will sit seiza or in Siddhasana (sometimes called quarter lotus).

-stlah

[Tai Shi]

Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

I have never been athletic and I can’t bend over. I can’t sit cross leges. However I can sit in a chair with my feet firmly on the floor and my hands together in my lap in cosmic mudra. This is tall mountain pose perfect for sitting meditation or any old or disabled or anyone meditation.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Huichan]

Thanks for the tips. My hips are so unflexible that half lotus is a distant dream at the moment, so just going to have to concentrate to getting to burmese for now

Gassho
Ross
stlah