Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Chikyou]

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

This is similar to my experience as well; I have tried various forms of meditation (not Zazen, but several attempts at other forms of meditation, most recently western "mindfulness", over the years) and none of it really made much sense to me. When I tried Shikantaza, it was like a light finally turned on. It just makes sense in a way nothing else has.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

[Jundo]

That is correct, Kelly.

And, of course, there are many kinds of "meditation" in the world, of which Zazen is just one flavor.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you for your answer!

To check my understanding: Zazen is the practice overall, and shikantaza is the specific type of zazen that we practice, do I understand correctly?

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

I had sat half lotus for years. Simultaneously, I had back pain..sometimes bad...sometimes not so bad....Always got worse when sitting for long periods. Then I switched to Burmese (The Taoists call this the Immortal Posture) and my back pain went away during long sits. I had to accept that my body changed and I found it a good thing to listen to the body. I found that as long as the posture is stable and supports my body and mind to keep still, it supports my practice. I still will use half-lotus from time to time, but not my primary way anymore.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Anyone got any tips from transitioning from sitting in seiza to burmese? I'm quite an athletic person but have always had awful flexibility...

When I first tried sitting, I got my sitting all wrong (not understanding what 'acceptable' sitting positions were) and was sitting in a generaly cross legged position (I understand why it's not recommended as it was not nice to sit in for such a long period of time...). Once I realised this was wrong, I just sat in seiza, as I couldn't do anything else. I was trying to improve this but quite quickly injured my hip , so held off for a while.

As I don't really have any real medical conditions or bad injuries, feel I should be able to sit in a position that requires more flexibility with a bit of effort. I have a fairly decent knowledge of things like this as I'm a PE teacher and practiced yoga on and off for a few years. Looking more for specific stretches in a yoga routine or modified sitting positions that I could do while reading or relaxing. Or even some tips that might help actually sitting burmese a bit easier.

Just tried sitting in burmese now though, and it's the closest I've ever been to sitting in an almost comfortable position, but wouldn't be able to do it for more than 5 minutes still

* Edited just to say it feels like my right psoas is really tight when sitting burmese, so seems like a problem relating to that

Sorry to run long

Gassho
Ross
stlah

When you tried seiza, were you using a bench? Those help tremendously imho. As for specific yoga stretches, I find Agnistambhasana (double-pigeon or firelog pose) quite helpful for the hips. It is easy to vary the intensity by leaning forward or back in the pose. If you are inflexible, you will definitely feel an intense stretch in your hips!

Don't think that a specific posture should be a "goal" -- work with your own body and its limitations. More flexibility is nice, but there's nothing magical in the full lotus. I used to be able to sit that way but can't anymore due to injuries. That upset me at first, but I just had to let go of that unnecessary attachment. Fwiw, I find half lotus unbalanced and uncomfortable. Burmese tends to make my back ache. Generally I will sit seiza or in Siddhasana (sometimes called quarter lotus).

-stlah

[Tai Shi]

Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

I have never been athletic and I can’t bend over. I can’t sit cross leges. However I can sit in a chair with my feet firmly on the floor and my hands together in my lap in cosmic mudra. This is tall mountain pose perfect for sitting meditation or any old or disabled or anyone meditation.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Huichan]

Thanks for the tips. My hips are so unflexible that half lotus is a distant dream at the moment, so just going to have to concentrate to getting to burmese for now

Gassho
Ross
stlah

[houst0n]

Anyone got any tips from transitioning from sitting in seiza to burmese? I'm quite an athletic person but have always had awful flexibility...

When I first tried sitting, I got my sitting all wrong (not understanding what 'acceptable' sitting positions were) and was sitting in a generaly cross legged position (I understand why it's not recommended as it was not nice to sit in for such a long period of time...). Once I realised this was wrong, I just sat in seiza, as I couldn't do anything else. I was trying to improve this but quite quickly injured my hip , so held off for a while.

As I don't really have any real medical conditions or bad injuries, feel I should be able to sit in a position that requires more flexibility with a bit of effort. I have a fairly decent knowledge of things like this as I'm a PE teacher and practiced yoga on and off for a few years. Looking more for specific stretches in a yoga routine or modified sitting positions that I could do while reading or relaxing. Or even some tips that might help actually sitting burmese a bit easier.

Just tried sitting in burmese now though, and it's the closest I've ever been to sitting in an almost comfortable position, but wouldn't be able to do it for more than 5 minutes still

* Edited just to say it feels like my right psoas is really tight when sitting burmese, so seems like a problem relating to that

Sorry to run long

Gassho
Ross
stlah

You're going to want to spend a whole bunch of time doing the butterfly stretch!

But really you don't need to spend a crazy amount of time on it -- there is no rush (unless you're training for some Antaiji level sesshin where they're going to force you to sit on a 1cm high Zafu? ) What worked for me (so far) was getting an extra high Zafu, and sitting Quarter Lotus (I find more comfortable than Burmese) but even then, after 30 minutes or so I still get the odd dead leg. When I am sitting longer, I use a bench (which genuinely, feels more stable than even half lotus for me... *shrug*) but I try to do one sitting a day on the Zafu, and during that one I just sit until the legs get so distracting that I stop -- gradually they'll open up!

Just be sure to switch which leg is on top, which I didn't do, and have completely unbalanced hips now

Don't overdo it!

Gassho,
./sat
N

[Bion]

Anyone got any tips from transitioning from sitting in seiza to burmese? I'm quite an athletic person but have always had awful flexibility...

When I first tried sitting, I got my sitting all wrong (not understanding what 'acceptable' sitting positions were) and was sitting in a generaly cross legged position (I understand why it's not recommended as it was not nice to sit in for such a long period of time...). Once I realised this was wrong, I just sat in seiza, as I couldn't do anything else. I was trying to improve this but quite quickly injured my hip , so held off for a while.

As I don't really have any real medical conditions or bad injuries, feel I should be able to sit in a position that requires more flexibility with a bit of effort. I have a fairly decent knowledge of things like this as I'm a PE teacher and practiced yoga on and off for a few years. Looking more for specific stretches in a yoga routine or modified sitting positions that I could do while reading or relaxing. Or even some tips that might help actually sitting burmese a bit easier.

Just tried sitting in burmese now though, and it's the closest I've ever been to sitting in an almost comfortable position, but wouldn't be able to do it for more than 5 minutes still

* Edited just to say it feels like my right psoas is really tight when sitting burmese, so seems like a problem relating to that

Sorry to run long

Gassho
Ross
stlah

Well, burmese can get pretty uncomfortable, and I say that from experience, cause for me it’s bad when I try it. I sit half lotus and I find the secret to a moderately comfortable sit lies in the position and placement on the cushion, as well as the cushion itself. If you get too much angling on the hips cause of height while sitting, your thighs are gonna kill you during 30 mins. So, first off, stretch before sitting, ALWAYS and then once seated, sway, turn, move and make sure there’s not much tenseness (not tension) in your hips and thighs. Allow the body to rest comfortably on itself, rather than trying to hold it in the posture by clenching and tightening muscles.
Ultimately, only you can correct your posture by constantly observing and understanding the pain.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Huichan]

Anyone got any tips from transitioning from sitting in seiza to burmese? I'm quite an athletic person but have always had awful flexibility...

When I first tried sitting, I got my sitting all wrong (not understanding what 'acceptable' sitting positions were) and was sitting in a generaly cross legged position (I understand why it's not recommended as it was not nice to sit in for such a long period of time...). Once I realised this was wrong, I just sat in seiza, as I couldn't do anything else. I was trying to improve this but quite quickly injured my hip , so held off for a while.

As I don't really have any real medical conditions or bad injuries, feel I should be able to sit in a position that requires more flexibility with a bit of effort. I have a fairly decent knowledge of things like this as I'm a PE teacher and practiced yoga on and off for a few years. Looking more for specific stretches in a yoga routine or modified sitting positions that I could do while reading or relaxing. Or even some tips that might help actually sitting burmese a bit easier.

Just tried sitting in burmese now though, and it's the closest I've ever been to sitting in an almost comfortable position, but wouldn't be able to do it for more than 5 minutes still

* Edited just to say it feels like my right psoas is really tight when sitting burmese, so seems like a problem relating to that

Sorry to run long

Gassho
Ross
stlah

[Jundo]

The experience of non-grasping during "just sitting" makes "just driving", "just folding laundry", "just cooking supper", "just playing with the kids" easier; it comes more naturally because of shikantaza.

It is more a radical equanimity with all of life, even when the laundry needs doing, the supper gets burned, the car has a flat. We sometimes need to think while doing those things, and we feel emotions, but we are not a prisoner of thoughts and emotions.

That said, please don't do anything strange with the mind while driving. Just drive, with the ordinary awakeness and attention of driving. Don't crash the car while trying to be "mindful" or something.

In fact, I have this other essay in which I compare Shikantaza to driving ...

Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16743-Drivin-Dogen-Understanding-Open-Spacious-Awareness

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

My zazen is very simple and happy not at time. As I sit I like to visualize as Jundo teaches. I am driving down the road looking neither right or left. I think my breath helps me move forward. I do take note as I move by the country side and breathe but If get stuck, I count breath and begin to move. Then I am there. For me a while time stands still.
Gassho
st/lah


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