Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

hello Jundo Sensei,

thank you for the lesson, it is really helpfull.
i have a question I betray meself that my eyes are moving more to chest level height after a while. when i realize this i correct them. are there any focus points or is that not a problem?

Thank you,

Diana
*SatToDAy*

Hi Diana,

The eyes may travel in their ordinary way, not fixated, resting here and resting there. I compare it to normal vision when driving a car. No need to do anything strange with the eyes. Generally, we are looking about 45 degrees downward, looking down toward the floor or at an open wall, but not trying to be so precise about it.

The only difference from normal vision is that we don't think much ABOUT what we might see. Here is what I usually say on this:

I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

My focus just wanders from point to point to point quite naturally, resting where they rest, on this or that, then moving on when they move on.

What a room looks like before Zazen ...

What the room looks like during Zazen (but just not thinking particularly thoughts like "ugly sofa, nice chair, wish I were outside, need to clean this dirty floor ... "

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[DGF]

hello Jundo Sensei,

thank you for the lesson, it is really helpfull.
i have a question I betray meself that my eyes are moving more to chest level height after a while. when i realize this i correct them. are there any focus points or is that not a problem?

Thank you,

Diana
*SatToDAy*

[Jundo]

Jundo, your comment about how "somedays we will have bad days of zazen and somedays we will have good ones, but it is still zazen." Really hit home for me. In many areas of my life, I have been waiting for perfection in order to start. I realize that things can never be perfect . Thank you for all that you do.
Floyd
ST

In our practice we leap through human subjective judgements and dichotomies of "good vs. bad" "perfect vs, imperfect" and all measure of "flaws" ...

... and thus discover a kind of Big P Perfection that shines right through all human times of good or bad, perfection and imperfection. It is kind of a light which shines even through the flaws. The bad days remain, the problems of life remain ... but so does the light.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Beautyseeker2224]

Jundo, your comment about how "somedays we will have bad days of zazen and somedays we will have good ones, but it is still zazen." Really hit home for me. In many areas of my life, I have been waiting for perfection in order to start. I realize that things can never be perfect . Thank you for all that you do.
Floyd
ST

[Tai Shi]

I'm happy for your appreciation of music, a way of speaking quite beautiful. I have been a lover of music since grade school, sure people who play musical instruments feel deeply about music. I remember when our 5th grade class went to a concert, how I was swept up in The New World Symphony. Dogen must have had musical appreciation.
Gassho
sat/ lah

[Tomás ESP]

Thank you very much for your input Bokugan (beautiful Dharma name by the way, loved the story you shared on the forum about it).

And Jundo, what you share resonates so much with me. Embracing all of it. I can feel you love life in a deep and meaningful way, with all its nuts and bolts. This is what I aspire to, not to make Samsara into Nirvana, but to recognize that Samsara is already Nirvana (just to take up the classical formula), to really live deeply. Really grateful for your sharings

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Bokugan]

Yes.

I don't try to hear it or force it, and just relax and listen.

If I may compare this to being at a classical music concert, saying to oneself "I really want to hear this music, I really want to hear this music." One will not really hear the music. But, when one truly relaxes, and just does not think or try much of anything, the music just washes through one ... and one might even become the sound, and the sound is just you.

Something like that.

My only quibble with some views of meditation is with the view that "it is only real meditation, going well, when I am completely swept up in the music, forgetting myself." I don't think so. Such moments are precious, and not to be ignored ... they enrich us and are necessary to this Path. However, they are not the entire, wonderful "concert experience!" I like driving to the theatre, getting stuck in traffic on the way, buying popcorn in the lobby (do that have that at classical concerts? if not, cheese and wine ), sitting there sometimes lost in thought about other things yet the music and my thoughts blend together ... then remembering where I am, and coming back again and again to the performance. I even love when the show is over, the curtain comes down and it is time to come home.

ALL of this is "enlightenment" to the wise ear in Dogen's arrangement. It is not only the moments when we are swept up in, and become, the music.

What is more, on the way back into the world, when the orchestra has gone silent, the theatre is shut, and we are thrown again into the noise and clamor of the city or our messy lives, hopefully the beauty and harmony of the symphony is still in our bones. It is all LIFE'S SYMPHONY to the Buddha's Ear.

Something like that. I hope it makes sense.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I did not see Jundo's response until after I posted! This is wonderful: "hopefully the beauty and harmony of the symphony is still in our bones"

Our shikantaza practice helps us to be in tune with the whole wonderful "concert experience", even the traffic jams.

Thank you

Gassho,
Bokugan

[Bokugan]

When one hears a sound, one does not need to make an effort to hear it, it comes naturally. Could the same principle be applied to Shikantaza? Think not-thinking, by going beyond thinking and just abiding in a continuous flow of experiencing without grasping or rejecting anything. Does that make sense?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

This makes perfect sense to me, Tomás

Perhaps shikantaza could even be thought of as a way to practice "not experiencing" --- but that statement is in the same spirit as what you posted. Words are hard for this stuff!

If we are not defining the sound, and it "just is", your analogy seems like a really good one to me

Gassho,

Bokugan
SatToday

[Jundo]

When one hears a sound, one does not need to make an effort to hear it, it comes naturally. Could the same principle be applied to Shikantaza? Think not-thinking, by going beyond thinking and just abiding in a continuous flow of experiencing without grasping or rejecting anything. Does that make sense?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Yes.

I don't try to hear it or force it, and just relax and listen.

If I may compare this to being at a classical music concert, saying to oneself "I really want to hear this music, I really want to hear this music." One will not really hear the music. But, when one truly relaxes, and just does not think or try much of anything, the music just washes through one ... and one might even become the sound, and the sound is just you.

Something like that.

My only quibble with some views of meditation is with the view that "it is only real meditation, going well, when I am completely swept up in the music, forgetting myself." I don't think so. Such moments are precious, and not to be ignored ... they enrich us and are necessary to this Path. However, they are not the entire, wonderful "concert experience!" I like driving to the theatre, getting stuck in traffic on the way, buying popcorn in the lobby (do that have that at classical concerts? if not, cheese ), sitting there sometimes lost in thought about other things yet the music and my thoughts blend together ... then remembering where I am, and coming back again and again to the performance. I even love when the show is over, the curtain comes down and it is time to come home.

ALL of this is "enlightenment" to the wise ear in Dogen's arrangement. It is not only the moments when we are swept up in, and become, the music.

What is more, on the way back into the world, when the orchestra has gone silent, the theatre is shut, and we are thrown again into the noise and clamor of the city or our messy lives, hopefully the beauty and harmony of the symphony is still in our bones. It is all LIFE'S SYMPHONY to the Buddha's Ear.

Something like that. I hope it makes sense.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tobiishi]

For what it's worth... I place left on top of right on purpose because it does feel unnatural (I'm right-handed), in order to be acutely aware of what I'm doing. It reminds me that I am placing my hands in a particular position on purpose. I do the same thing when exercising or doing yoga- left side first just to make a point to myself and be aware. Anyway.


Kodo Tobiishi stlah

[Shokai]

Ha, Buddha was a south paw. As in baseball, there is a myth that south paws are harder to hit against. But, in my opinion, when you face enough left handed pitchers, you get where their coming from.

gasho, Shokai
stlah

[Tomás ESP]

When one hears a sound, one does not need to make an effort to hear it, it comes naturally. Could the same principle be applied to Shikantaza? Think not-thinking, by going beyond thinking and just abiding in a continuous flow of experiencing without grasping or rejecting anything. Does that make sense?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Zrebna]

Really interesting stuff on the "how to form the mudra"-topic.
I also do not believe that there is something "magical" going on i.e. that it really would matter (if left on right or vice versa) and in addition to that it's somewhat amusing that in other big tradtions such as within the Theravada School it is apparently completely the opposite i.e. there the default/"official" recommendation seems to be to place the right hand on the left hand - also the fingers are fully stretched and the thumbs would not touch...

Anyways, thanks for the input, as usual.

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

A traditional point may have been that only a full blown Buddha can sit so ... we are not allowed to.

But here is more on the topic of anti-south paw discrimination that you probably care (or need) to know ...

~~~~


In Fukanzazengi, Master Dogen writes ...

Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left hand on your right palm, thumb-tips lightly touching.

A respected Buddhist art historian says:



But does it matter? In some areas of traditional Chinese medicine, some people make a big deal of this (the same prejudice found in the west for the "sinister" left). I would not make a big deal of this. I have heard some other Zen teachers of many years experience commenting on it. Let me briefly quote from the article by the current abbot of Antaiji, Muho Noelke, for those who don't know ...



Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.

Several respected older Western Zen teachers were discussing the article recently, and don't see the difference between left and right. I usually favor the right, as I am right handed. It feels strange for to place the hands, for example, with the left hand on the bottom. However, I do not see any magic property in sitting one way or the other. If something feels strange about one side or the other, it is the same strangeness of a left hander trying to play tennis with a right handed grip and visa versa.



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Wow, thanks for that information. I’ve never pondered as to why the mudra is left over right, so that’s good to know. For me it’s always been about respecting the teaching passed down through generations, with no regard for the “benefit” of one over the other: it’s just how we do it.
In reality, I do it cause I have two hands and can sit on two legs, but my zazen, I feel, would be in no way superior to that of someone without arms or legs, who can’t form the mudra.

Thank you for being the benevolent and patient encyclopedia you are [emoji1374] [emoji1374]

Sat Today ( and used too many words.. which I apologize for)

[Jundo]

Ha! Nice one! Even better then!!! I stand totally corrected!

[emoji1374] Sat Today

A traditional point may have been that only a full blown Buddha can sit so ... we are not allowed to.

But here is more on the topic of anti-south paw discrimination that you probably care (or need) to know ...

~~~~


In Fukanzazengi, Master Dogen writes ...

Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left hand on your right palm, thumb-tips lightly touching.

A respected Buddhist art historian says:

Zenjō-in 禅定印 [meaning “Meditation Mudra”] ... Made by placing both hands in the lap, right on top of left, with palms turned upward and thumbs touching to form a circle. It symbolizes the Buddha in a state of meditation. ... In addition, Zen artwork frequently portrays Shaka (the Historical Buddha) with the ordinary meditation mudra, but the position of both hands is often reversed (left on top of right, not right on top of left). This is called Zenshūyō-no-Shaka (Shaka in the Style of the Zen Sect).

But does it matter? In some areas of traditional Chinese medicine, some people make a big deal of this (the same prejudice found in the west for the "sinister" left). I would not make a big deal of this. I have heard some other Zen teachers of many years experience commenting on it. Let me briefly quote from the article by the current abbot of Antaiji, Muho Noelke, for those who don't know ...

In the "introduction to Zazen"... Sawaki Roshi [ states that] " ... . First you should know the difference between two ways of sitting: Gômaza, the "posture that subdues demons", and kichijôza, the "auspicious posture". Even in old texts, there is quite some confusion about the two postures. In short, the right side represents the ascending, active (yang) aspect. The left side represents the descending, passive (yin) aspect. When the right foot rests on the left thigh, that represents the ascending activity that subdues the demons (gômaza). When the left foot rests on the right thigh, that is a descending, passive activity which is auspicious (kichijôza).
You might think that this is only true for the half lotus. But that is not the case: In full lotus as well, if you first place your right foot on top of the left thigh, that is called gômaza. Gômaza also means to place the right hand first on the left foot. When the right hand is covered next with the left hand, that settles down the mind. In kichijôza on the other hand, the left foot is placed first on the right thigh (and then the right foot on the left thight) and the left hand is placed on top of the right foot, then the right hand on top of the left hand. That means that we speak of kichijôza in the case of half lotus as Dogen Zenji describes it - left foot placed on right thigh - while we speak of gômaza in the case of the full lotus (with right foot placed on left thigh first, then left foot placed on right thigh)."

Although Sawaki Roshi tries to clear up the confusion with these words, I have doubts that he is successful. It seems strange that Dogen Zenji should recommend kichijôza for half lotus and gômaza for full lotus. Sawaki Roshi does not tell us why we should sit one way in half lotus and the other way in full lotus. It is interesting but even more confusing that Sawaki also speaks about the hands. In the case of the hands, we should have them in the gômaza-posture regardless of half or full lotus - according to Dogen read in the way Sawaki does. I am afraid that Sawaki's way of reading Dogen though is not only confusing, but probably wrong altogether.

Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.

Several respected older Western Zen teachers were discussing the article recently, and don't see the difference between left and right. I usually favor the right, as I am right handed. It feels strange for to place the hands, for example, with the left hand on the bottom. However, I do not see any magic property in sitting one way or the other. If something feels strange about one side or the other, it is the same strangeness of a left hander trying to play tennis with a right handed grip and visa versa.



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH