By the way, those Buddhists who believe in "literal rebirth" found ways to explain away that conundrum about how there is no "soul" but "you" nonetheless go on. As I said, MOST Buddhists believe that "you" go to heavens or hells or some other destination when you die. It is not as clear cut a difference between traditional Buddhism (including Zen Buddhism) and Christianity as you believe.
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ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE -
Hi everyone,
A few months ago I joined Treeleaf and as a Christian of the orthodox protestant neck of the woods, felt very much the same as you Timo. But the fact is, Zen is not about that. It’s about life here, right now. Live life and live it well. Just this.
I would like to contribute to this thread in answer to the points Timo stated.
Cathilicism and Potestantism again differ greatly in oppinion. Lots of 'isms' so let's stick to the general term. Christianity has a great tradition of mediation and many practitioners of Zen. But there are also some great Zen minds who are also Christian. They must be doing something right?
I for one believe in Jesus who teaches us to love others the way we (should) love ourselves. Loving is accepting the way it is. At least I think it is. So nothing to add, nothing to change, nothing to gain or lose because someon/ it already is/was perfect. Creation at one point is/was perfect. Loving/ accepting who you are is a huge task. Zen helps me to do this with the tool of shikantaza and a different formulation of the same rules to live by. One has 10 the other 8. Both say the same thing. Loving/ accepting others (and all things) in the same way as you love yourself and put this love to action without even the selfish need to still label it love. Zen is a tool, the Way in service of the Way.
Even more so, you, me and all around us are all the same to Him ( Jesus), because they are not three.
Surely there is hardly a better example of someone who had to deal with the dogmatic extremists of his time, than Jesus. Why? Because he was teaching something that did not sit well with people who drew power and authority from imposing a dualistic view of the world. The commandments became a tool for humans to suppress humans instead of a way to live life well.
I have no problem at all in being an active Christian and seriously studying Zen. I go to Church and later happily sit on my Zafu to practice. Yes! You, me, everything ( not three) is all worth dying for and I find peace in the fact someone actually voluntarily did! But that is just me and for me a good way of looking at it. If someone else has another vieuw on things, that is just fine. Different flower, same beauty.
Now let's go sit, chop wood, fetch water like Jundo said. Keeping it real is hard enough, but thats OK
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In conclusion this:
The early church had a strong meditation tradition ( not contemplation, meditation) that was dropped along the way for practical reasons.
Early Christians called themselves students of ‘the Way’
In Christianity today, meditation is coming back strongly. This because more and more Christians think faith is not just an intellectual thing.
A question that already got me into debate several times is this: what was Jesus doing when he went to the garden in Getsemaneh or some other quiet places on a regular basis, for long periods of time? Modern translations says praying but the old texts are not so clear. Interesting no? Herretic? What do you guys think?
Sorry for the lengthy post guys. I had to shorten it already and hope it still makes some sense.
Sorry Jundo and Taigu for talking football at the tennis practice. I’ll shut up now.
Gassho
EnkyoMuComment
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This has been mentioned before, but there is a specific Catholic priest named Robert Kennedy who is also an ordained Zen Buddhist priest. I vaguely remember him stating that Zen Buddhism has helped him understand Christianity better and brought him closer to God. Both preach compassion and IMHO can co-exist to a point.
Gassho,
Onken
Comment
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Really cool post. A deep discussion on belief. A catholic believes this. A zen buddhist believes this. In my observation the conflict is with a person who has attached themselves to the belief. When you pick a side then another side can be chosen and naturally conflict arises. There can now be right and wrong and the war of conceptual ideas rages on. Should we believe in nothing? Can we believe in nothing and something at the same time? Beyond nothing and something. Catholicism and Zen they are compatible and they are not compatible. Therefore they are compatible. Throw the beliefs away and there is nothing to compare only harmony.
Thank you for this thread.
Gassho,
DaidoComment
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Hans, thanks for your informative and entertaining speech.
Sitting morning and evening and relying on the precepts as a guidance is a good boat to travel in to the other shore.
Whatever you practice or call yourself, I think its important to travel (act) with peace and compassion._/_
Rich
MUHYO
無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...
https://instagram.com/notmovingmindComment
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Compatible, incompatible; what does it matter really? As long as what someone believes allows them to feel at peace with themselves and the world around them, to be kind and open to others than it all amounts to the same thing the way I see it. I read the Buddha saying somewhere, "All is my Dharma." Every belief or practice that is liberating to you, is the Dharma, so it is "right" and pure.
I was once a devout Roman Catholic. Went through most of the sacraments. I was even an altar boy for awhile and found a great sense of well-being when I was performing the rituals. Once, during communion, I had a vision in which I was sitting in a vast, beautiful and ancient temple. I have had similar experiences during zazen (never focusing on them, merely letting them go). I read the bible a few times, the New Testament many times, and found a lot of goodness within it. I no longer believe in Jesus, but I still do admire and respect the idea of the man.
After Catholicism, I went on a tour of the religions of the world and found that the story of Jesus is in a way just a different slant on a man finding enlightenment and then trying to bring those who were suffering to the "other shore." I mean, not everything I've read in the bible is in sync with Buddhism, but it doesn't really matter. Form your own personal understanding and if it guides you well then, for lack of better words, it is good.
Gassho,
JohnComment
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I just had a couple of folks write to me that they are considering to leave Treeleaf because of my statements in this thread. So, I wrote them this ...
I will add this, food for thought ... and non-thought.
If I said Zen and Christianity were incompatible, I might get some people leaving Treeleaf in confusion.
If I say they are compatible, I get people leaving Treeleaf in confusion.
To me, there is no confusion or compatible or incompatible. All are welcome to Treeleaf, and here we sit Shikantaza.
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
Gassho, JundoLast edited by Jundo; 05-10-2013, 03:28 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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I think everyone on this thread talking about how rational Zen is traditionally compared to those "fire and brimstone" folks with their rules and their devils and such should read this other thread today ... on the Shurangama Sutra, very valued by many Zen folks ...
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Wow, this is a very interesting thread and I can't help but think I helped motivate this topic. Anyways, since all of the other points have been covered (and points I didn't even know were points), I think I have learned a lot about the similarities of Zen and Catholicism. Zazen is in Catholicism. A topic I would like to bring up (rather a generalization) is that I see a lot more Catholics practicing for more of a social benefit while Buddhists practice for a more personal wrong. Don't get me wrong, I know some Buddhist do this, but it seems many Christians have started shifting to eradicate the world of sin. They do not seem very content with their beliefs and try pushing them upon the world through politics, preaching, and other means. In my opinion, most Buddhist practice for a more personal gain.
Gassho,
Alex
Look upon the world as a bubble,
regard it as a mirage;
who thus perceives the world,
him Mara, the king of death, does not see.
—Dhammapada
Sat TodayComment
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I believe that the following is so vital with regard to Shikantaza that I will say it endless times ...
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
In Shikantaza, we are beyond and right through-and-through confusion, and small human judgments of "compatible vs. incompatible".
... for all is ultimately empty, and thus any belief system** is ultimately Compatible (Big "C") with Shikantaza.
If such point about sitting "beyond and through-and-through confusion, conflict and compatible (small "c")" is not clear, one is simply not Clear (Big "C") about Zazen.
Gassho, J
** absent anger and violence, greed and other harms as previously indicated.Last edited by Jundo; 05-10-2013, 08:15 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi,
Thank you for this.
If we put on a different glove, do we feel the same elephant?
I was brought up a strict Catholic. Now Zen is my way. Sometimes I'll go to mass with my father. It makes him very happy ... and I don't mind.
Gassho
MyozanLast edited by Myozan Kodo; 05-10-2013, 08:35 AM.Comment
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May I also respectfully remind you that Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, monotheist, dualist, non-dualist, male, female, gay, straight, liberal, conservative, moderate, Nazi, Peacenik, Buddhist are all labels and ideas we assume in this world of Samsara.
Our Way is a way beyond words, labels and ideas even while living in this world of words, labels and ideas. SO LONG AS LIVING GENTLY, IN KEEPING WITH THE PRECEPTS it is not really so important what labels or ideas we hold so long as simultaneously free of all labels and ideas. Some call that God, some Buddha, but what can one call the Uncallable?
One can Practice Zen as a man or woman, gay or straight, baker or candle stick maker (butcher raises some issue), so same for Catholic or Atheist or whatnot so long as piercing all such labels, ideas, categories, conflicts and limitations.
Gassho, JundoALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Let me first make some things clear, just to avoid misunderstandings:
1) I was not one of those members that contacted Jundo telling him I considered leaving Treeleaf (although this could be an option, I must admit).
2) I am not a “hardliner” or anything like that – far from it! In fact it took me a long time to finally commit myself to a path again. I still mix in stuff that I personally consider as “compatible” – some Mahayana practices like TNH’s pebble meditation now and then, Tai-Chi, some Qigong practices, Chinese Tea Ceremony, etc.
3) It is not my intention to belittle, ridicule or reject other religions – I accept them as long as they are peaceful.
Next I’d really like to thank Hans for his excellent video!
I really agree with most things he said.
Now to the BUT SECTION:
Yes, during zazen we drop all thoughts/barriers/concepts.
However, zazen is still a Zen practice and thus deeply embedded in Buddhism. And while Jundo mentioned how diverse Buddhism is, this thread was basically about the Zen flavor and Catholicism – not Buddhism in general and Christian Belief in general!
So when Hans mentions correctly that some people like to keep their original background and pick and mix elements, and there is no absolute authority on what is right (what about the Bible though?), the matter is quite clear when it comes to Catholicism – they have an authority, namely the Pope/Vatican!
And Catholic dogmas are mostly contradictory to Zen practice.
Yes, yes, Zen seems to be contradictory in itself – however, there are still real contradictions in this world.
There is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…
Can a Catholic practice zazen? Sure, but (supposed he takes both paths seriously in an equal measure) eventually he will reach a point in his practice when he’ll feel an inner conflict and have to make a decision. Otherwise he’ll practice something like “bompu zen”, just scratching the surface of things.
Zazen is not just some kind of gymnastics for body and mind, but it is deeply intertwined with Buddha, Dharma and Sangha!
When you drop body/mind, there is no “Creator vs. Creation”, no “Nature vs. Man” – there is just oneness. Or in other words “You are god” (if you really can’t help using this term).
This does not get along well with Catholic doctrine, i.e. as a Catholic you will get into trouble…
Yes, the Jesuits – actually there were some that were muzzled by the Vatican in the past (e.g. Willigis Jäger in 2002, because the Pope at that time seemingly was not too amused by some of his views).
Can there be awakening outside Zen? Sure! Zen is just one path of many!
Can Zen be mixed with other traditions? Sure! As long as they are non-dualistic!
However, as soon as you introduce a dualistic element (like Catholicism) in a non-dualistic path – you end up with dualism again!
Like I said above, there is no such thing like a “pork eating vegetarian”. As a vegetarian you can mix certain fruits and vegetables without problems, but as soon as you eat meat, well, you are not a vegetarian…
To get back to Hans’ excellent video:
What do I trust? I trust zazen, I trust this practice.
However, I am not that sure anymore about other things here.
Do I completely misunderstand Zen Practice? I am pretty sure I don’t.
Perhaps I should quote the Dude (The Big Lebowski): “That’s just your opinion, man”
Gassho,
Timono thing needs to be addedComment
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Hi,
When someone eats vegetables, they are a vegetarian. When someone eats pork, they are not. They are one or the other in the present moment.
My friend was a vegan for years. Now she eats meat. In one moment she is a vegetarian; in another moment she is a carnivore. If you take her life so far, as a whole, she is a pork eating vegetarian.
Gassho
MyozanComment
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