Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[Eikyo]

Krista - thank you for sympathising - it means a lot to not be the lone voice here, it has not been easy!! Thanks for reminding me I'm not crazy (not about this at least [emoji12])

Risho, Evan and Nick - deep bows. This chat has been a learning opportunity for me too!!

Ania - completely agree! There are plenty of vegans with small cold hearts (hopefully I am not one of them haha) and likewise, people from all different walks of life with huge hearts, an important reminder.

Metta,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[Meian]

There can be different viewpoints on this without any of those viewpoints being an “excuse.” It’s ok to disagree, but not to invalidate another’s interpretation of the precepts.

Gassho2, meian st lh

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[Kyonin]

Jundo and the priests (I still think that is a great name for a band) do so much to make Ango and Jukai work every year; let's hold up our part and honor them by practicing genuinely, trying our best to keep the precepts and our vows.

[gaurdianaq]

Krista - thank you for sympathising - it means a lot to not be the lone voice here, it has not been easy!! Thanks for reminding me I'm not crazy (not about this at least [emoji12])

Risho, Evan and Nick - deep bows. This chat has been a learning opportunity for me too!!

Ania - completely agree! There are plenty of vegans with small cold hearts (hopefully I am not one of them haha) and likewise, people from all different walks of life with huge hearts, an important reminder.

Metta,
Dee
ST/LAH

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You are definitely not one of those vegans with small cold hearts. I can tell that just from the way you write and how you approached this topic. I think you were well composed, and it shows that you took the time to think about what you were saying, a deep bow to you as well!


Evan,
Sat today

[Amelia]

Some humans must eat meat to maintain health according to their doctor's recommendation-- none of us here would recommend going against a doctor's orders, I hope. Most humans can find ways to avoid meat and stay healthy, but whichever you are, try to live as gently and with as much gratitude for life as you can. If meat is served to me, I will not waste it, but if I can choose otherwise, I will.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

I will just post this famous Suzuki Roshi story, which was once rumored to be made up but later confirmed to have actually happened ...

Once when Tassajara, a mountain retreat center, was being built, a carpenter [named Bob] was working on it; he was not a Zen student [at the time] but a yoga student; he kept a strict vegetarian diet, eating mostly fruit and nuts. He was driving Roshi back to San Francisco, along the Coast highway, when they both got hungry. Roshi wanted to stop right away but the carpenter kept on driving, looking for a place where he could get pure food. All they passed, however, were hot-dog and hamburger and taco joints. Roshi kept saying, How about stopping at this place? But the carpenter kept saying, No let's go on a little more. Looking for his fresh fruit meal. Finally Roshi told him to just stop at the next hamburger stand. The carpenter ordered a grilled cheese sandwich. Roshi ordered a cheeseburger. When the food came Roshi took one bite out of his cheeseburger. The carpenter took a bite out of his grilled cheese. Then Roshi made a face and said, I don't like this. He handed the cheeseburger to the carpenter, and took the grilled cheese for himself. You eat it, said Roshi.
http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Proje...ields-naj.html

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

Numerous people above have created an equivalence between animal and plant suffering.

I just read through the entire thread and only see it mentioned by two people but I agree that, based on our current knowledge, it is an entirely false equivalence.

Views on this topic are very strongly held and this discussion is always a very good practice in putting forward your position and letting others do the same without needing them to conform to your own.

In my opinion, diet also has to be considered within a broader context of the damaging nature of the western lifestyle of consumption. How much greater the impact on the environment and other animals by a vegan westerner than a meat-eating member of the Masai, for example. How many of us drive cars, take international flights etc.

That is not to in the slightest bit negate our food choices (and evidence very much suggests that reducing the amount of meat we consume is a very important thing to do for the environment as well as for the individual animals) but rather a reflection that we need to consider the impact and suffering caused by our entire lives through the interconnections such as the people (often children) working in inhumane conditions to produce the metals needed for our iphones (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...723-story.html), to which I am guilty as a iphone user, and sweatshops to produce our cheap clothing ,the pollution and animal death caused by the cheap production of plastics etc (100 000 marine creatures a year are estimated to die as a direct result of plastic pollution and 1 million seabirds; http://oceancrusaders.org/plastic-cr...ic-statistics/.

As I say, this is in no way to negate our food choices but to see where each and every action we take when we buy things (including electricity, gas and travel) has an impact on other beings, both human and non-human. None of us is not causing suffering but we should do what we can to reduce our impact on other beings we share this planet with, while realising there is no such thing as a cruelty free lifestyle.

Apologies for running over.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Bion]

I just read through the entire thread and only see it mentioned by two people but I agree that, based on our current knowledge, it is an entirely false equivalence.

Views on this topic are very strongly held and this discussion is always a very good practice in putting forward your position and letting others do the same without needing them to conform to your own.

In my opinion, diet also has to be considered within a broader context of the damaging nature of the western lifestyle of consumption. How much greater the impact on the environment and other animals by a vegan westerner than a meat-eating member of the Masai, for example. How many of us drive cars, take international flights etc.

That is not to in the slightest bit negate our food choices (and evidence very much suggests that reducing the amount of meat we consume is a very important thing to do for the environment as well as for the individual animals) but rather a reflection that we need to consider the impact and suffering caused by our entire lives through the interconnections such as the people (often children) working in inhumane conditions to produce the metals needed for our iphones (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...723-story.html), to which I am guilty as a iphone user, and sweatshops to produce our cheap clothing ,the pollution and animal death caused by the cheap production of plastics etc (100 000 marine creatures a year are estimated to die as a direct result of plastic pollution and 1 million seabirds; http://oceancrusaders.org/plastic-cr...ic-statistics/.

As I say, this is in no way to negate our food choices but to see where each and every action we take when we buy things (including electricity, gas and travel) has an impact on other beings, both human and non-human. None of us is not causing suffering but we should do what we can to reduce our impact on other beings we share this planet with, while realising there is no such thing as a cruelty free lifestyle.

Apologies for running over.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

One of the things I firmly believe is that the subjective aspect of it is terribly important as well. What I mean is that although someone can give us reasons as to why eating one thing or another might be good or bad, if there is a part of ourselves that considers is to be a harmful act, yet we decide to go ahead and do it because someone else’s opinion provides an excuse, then we CHOOSE to do something harmful. That part of the decision, in my opinion, is very important as well.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[nknibbs]

I just read through the entire thread and only see it mentioned by two people but I agree that, based on our current knowledge, it is an entirely false equivalence.

Views on this topic are very strongly held and this discussion is always a very good practice in putting forward your position and letting others do the same without needing them to conform to your own.

In my opinion, diet also has to be considered within a broader context of the damaging nature of the western lifestyle of consumption. How much greater the impact on the environment and other animals by a vegan westerner than a meat-eating member of the Masai, for example. How many of us drive cars, take international flights etc.

That is not to in the slightest bit negate our food choices (and evidence very much suggests that reducing the amount of meat we consume is a very important thing to do for the environment as well as for the individual animals) but rather a reflection that we need to consider the impact and suffering caused by our entire lives through the interconnections such as the people (often children) working in inhumane conditions to produce the metals needed for our iphones (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...723-story.html), to which I am guilty as a iphone user, and sweatshops to produce our cheap clothing ,the pollution and animal death caused by the cheap production of plastics etc (100 000 marine creatures a year are estimated to die as a direct result of plastic pollution and 1 million seabirds; http://oceancrusaders.org/plastic-cr...ic-statistics/.

As I say, this is in no way to negate our food choices but to see where each and every action we take when we buy things (including electricity, gas and travel) has an impact on other beings, both human and non-human. None of us is not causing suffering but we should do what we can to reduce our impact on other beings we share this planet with, while realising there is no such thing as a cruelty free lifestyle.

Apologies for running over.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I certainly don’t mean to imply that when I step on a blade of grass, it cries out in agony and that is equivalent to an animal in a slaughterhouse. But, I do gently push back on this thread to consider the entire super organism that is the Earth when we consider the consequences of our understanding of the precept. (And to gently push back on the idea that we can grade suffering so lightly). I simply mean that we must acknowledge that no matter what decision we make we are consuming life and that consumption involves suffering. When I look at cows at farms that produce beef, I feel compassion for them and acknowledge the suffering that they are in. When I see fields of greens being mowed down by huge tractors and put through bailers, I feel compassion for the superorganism that is the Earth because of the violence inherent in such a practice and the greenhouse gases emitted by those machines. All of our food choices have consequences and we must always be mindful of those consequences. Who picked the apple you are about to eat? Were they paid a fair wage? Are they healthy? These questions are every bit as important and related to suffering. But, at the end of the day, I drive a vehicle to get to work, to the store, to the barn.

As I said in a previous post, I do not care at all what someone’s food choices are-- as long as they consider what is on their plate and express gratitude to whatever organism they consume. I offer deep bows to all who have posted here-- everyone has remained so civil and I have learned something from everyone. I do believe that some in the vegan/vegetarian community hold so tightly to their views that they may lose sight of the suffering they may inflict on those that do not hold those views-- so I tend to gently push back when I get this sense. But, I also acknowledge that maybe I am getting too attached to my own views.

One of my ango commitments is to consume less meat (ideally none). I do this because I see the value in it and I respect that decision. I also express the awareness that not every human being has this luxury to choose due to their circumstances-- I dedicate my practice to them.

As Jundo Roshi has suggested numerous times on numerous threads, sometimes we have to put such discussions down and just sit. I think this is a good practice for me at this point.

Thank you all for this discussion and your practice. I look forward to experiencing ango with you all!

Sorry for running long...

Gassho,
Nick
Sat

[Jakuden]

I will just post this famous Suzuki Roshi story, which was once rumored to be made up but later confirmed to have actually happened ...

Once when Tassajara, a mountain retreat center, was being built, a carpenter [named Bob] was working on it; he was not a Zen student [at the time] but a yoga student; he kept a strict vegetarian diet, eating mostly fruit and nuts. He was driving Roshi back to San Francisco, along the Coast highway, when they both got hungry. Roshi wanted to stop right away but the carpenter kept on driving, looking for a place where he could get pure food. All they passed, however, were hot-dog and hamburger and taco joints. Roshi kept saying, How about stopping at this place? But the carpenter kept saying, No let's go on a little more. Looking for his fresh fruit meal. Finally Roshi told him to just stop at the next hamburger stand. The carpenter ordered a grilled cheese sandwich. Roshi ordered a cheeseburger. When the food came Roshi took one bite out of his cheeseburger. The carpenter took a bite out of his grilled cheese. Then Roshi made a face and said, I don't like this. He handed the cheeseburger to the carpenter, and took the grilled cheese for himself. You eat it, said Roshi.
http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Proje...ields-naj.html

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo! I wanted to post this story earlier but could not find it. There are some very strong attachments to views in this thread.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Doshin]

I have intentionally (but with difficultly) refrained from adding to this discussion (until now) for a variety of reasons but have read everyone’s heart felt posts. It is obvious that you all consider the impact of your food choices (that in itself is unique among our species, thank you). Kokuu has captured many of my thoughts on the topic. He briefly mentioned early on and again recently that even a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is supported by destruction of animals. I spent 35 years working to prevent the loss of wildlife from farming which has been a major factor in the decline of many species. For example I avoid soy products (due to my personal experience and sad memories) because their cultivation in the SE United States resulted in the declines of the bottomland hardwood wetland ecosystems. My choice will not bring those species back it is just my silent protest of what was. The word organic farming makes me cynical, not because it is not a good approach but towards the end of my career guidelines for certifying organic required 5 years of no pesticides to be used. A difficult prerequisite from an economic perspective so there was an acceleration in the conversion of natural ecosystems and destruction of the myriad of species they support to meet Certification requirements. To bring land into farming means habitat and all species depending upon it were destroyed and planting and harvesting operations result in animals loss albeit much less than the original conversion. However we must eat to survive. Throughout my life I have seen the human population increase dramatically and to feed it other species have declined through meat and plant production. I have long hoped for a reversal of our species population growth to reduce (not eliminate) suffering to other species.

I am an omnivore and I strive to make ethical choices in the meat and eggs I consume (i can financially afford to do so). As discussed above meat production comes at a great environmental cost and suffering that increases as our population does. Because of my work experience I am aware that the plants I consume also impacts animals and the environment. I work to lessen suffering and lessen my footprint while here.

I respect each and everyone’s choice and hope we all can lessen our impact on other species through our food choices and lifestyle. I believe that of all species on this planet we cause the most destruction to life and yet we are probably the only species that considers those impacts. To paraphrase a quote from a conservationist (Aldo Leopold) that I believe I shared elsewhere in the forum.....the consequences of an ecological education is that you see a world full of wounds.

I thank all of you for your insights, I read each post with an open heart to learn and inform my view. I come to this digital Sangha because I find people who are thoughtful and care....and that is a great comfort in my life.

I sincerely apologize for the length of my post..maybe my longest in a while. My only excuse is my great love of this earth and its amazing biodiversity. Thoughts about it fill my day. Thank you. May we all continue to hear each other, learn and strive forward with good hearts.

Doshin
St

PS I will not post for a week to compensate for so many words.

[Tairin]

Hello all,

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

That’s lovely Kyonin, I agree. Motivated by our goal to limit our carbon footprint, my family and I have reduced but not eliminated meat from our diet for the last 15 years. Regardless of what is put on the table I do my best to be thankful, respectful, and not wasteful of the gift that I am receiving.

Doshin. . I always appreciate the perspective you bring to the conversations here.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Seikan]

I have little to add here as I generally agree with the insights of Kokuu, Doshin, and others in that it is next to impossible to live a cruelty-free lifestyle when it comes to our choices.

That said, I feel that it all comes down the intent we cultivate that leads to our choices. If we strive to minimize the suffering of other sentient beings through our choices based on our individual experience/knowledge, then that's the best we can do. If we learn something new about how our choices may cause suffering, and we adjust our actions accordingly, then great. It is a lifelong process of personal education and mindful decision making. I don't believe that any of us can truly get to a point where we can live every moment of every day and truly cause zero suffering to others... Just ask my wife!

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

Apologies for the extra length of my response.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Nanrin]

I have intentionally (but with difficultly) refrained from adding to this discussion (until now) for a variety of reasons but have read everyone’s heart felt posts. It is obvious that you all consider the impact of your food choices (that in itself is unique among our species, thank you). Kokuu has captured many of my thoughts on the topic. He briefly mentioned early on and again recently that even a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle is supported by destruction of animals. I spent 35 years working to prevent the loss of wildlife from farming which has been a major factor in the decline of many species. For example I avoid soy products (due to my personal experience and sad memories) because their cultivation in the SE United States resulted in the declines of the bottomland hardwood wetland ecosystems. My choice will not bring those species back it is just my silent protest of what was. The word organic farming makes me cynical, not because it is not a good approach but towards the end of my career guidelines for certifying organic required 5 years of no pesticides to be used. A difficult prerequisite from an economic perspective so there was an acceleration in the conversion of natural ecosystems and destruction of the myriad of species they support to meet Certification requirements. To bring land into farming means habitat and all species depending upon it were destroyed and planting and harvesting operations result in animals loss albeit much less than the original conversion. However we must eat to survive. Throughout my life I have seen the human population increase dramatically and to feed it other species have declined through meat and plant production. I have long hoped for a reversal of our species population growth to reduce (not eliminate) suffering to other species.

I am an omnivore and I strive to make ethical choices in the meat and eggs I consume (i can financially afford to do so). As discussed above meat production comes at a great environmental cost and suffering that increases as our population does. Because of my work experience I am aware that the plants I consume also impacts animals and the environment. I work to lessen suffering and lessen my footprint while here.

I respect each and everyone’s choice and hope we all can lessen our impact on other species through our food choices and lifestyle. I believe that of all species on this planet we cause the most destruction to life and yet we are probably the only species that considers those impacts. To paraphrase a quote from a conservationist (Aldo Leopold) that I believe I shared elsewhere in the forum.....the consequences of an ecological education is that you see a world full of wounds.

I thank all of you for your insights, I read each post with an open heart to learn and inform my view. I come to this digital Sangha because I find people who are thoughtful and care....and that is a great comfort in my life.

I sincerely apologize for the length of my post..maybe my longest in a while. My only excuse is my great love of this earth and its amazing biodiversity. Thoughts about it fill my day. Thank you. May we all continue to hear each other, learn and strive forward with good hearts.

Doshin
St

PS I will not post for a week to compensate for so many words.

Nine bows.

Nanrin

Sat today

[Eikyo]

I will just post this famous Suzuki Roshi story, which was once rumored to be made up but later confirmed to have actually happened ...

Once when Tassajara, a mountain retreat center, was being built, a carpenter [named Bob] was working on it; he was not a Zen student [at the time] but a yoga student; he kept a strict vegetarian diet, eating mostly fruit and nuts. He was driving Roshi back to San Francisco, along the Coast highway, when they both got hungry. Roshi wanted to stop right away but the carpenter kept on driving, looking for a place where he could get pure food. All they passed, however, were hot-dog and hamburger and taco joints. Roshi kept saying, How about stopping at this place? But the carpenter kept saying, No let's go on a little more. Looking for his fresh fruit meal. Finally Roshi told him to just stop at the next hamburger stand. The carpenter ordered a grilled cheese sandwich. Roshi ordered a cheeseburger. When the food came Roshi took one bite out of his cheeseburger. The carpenter took a bite out of his grilled cheese. Then Roshi made a face and said, I don't like this. He handed the cheeseburger to the carpenter, and took the grilled cheese for himself. You eat it, said Roshi.
http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Proje...ields-naj.html

Gassho, J

STLah

They should have just gone to the taco stand!! No wonder Suzuki was annoyed.

Still don't think this answers the question though - it is pretty crappy to make someone eat a burger if they don't want to - does Zen mean not being allowed to have principles, and that those principles are there to be mocked and worn down?

Gassho
Dee
ST

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