Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[Jakuden]

Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

They should have just gone to the taco stand!! No wonder Suzuki was annoyed.

Still don't think this answers the question though - it is pretty crappy to make someone eat a burger if they don't want to - does Zen mean not being allowed to have principles, and that those principles are there to be mocked and worn down?

Gassho
Dee
ST

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Not at all, but “principles” can be attachments and must be held lightly. Making the student eat the burger was a teaching, not a mockery, which is why the story has value. We can ask ourselves if we are so attached to what we “know” is right that we forget that “knowing” is just the delusion between our two ears.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Eikyo]

Not at all, but “principles” can be attachments and must be held lightly. Making the student eat the burger was a teaching, not a mockery, which is why the story has value. We can ask ourselves if we are so attached to what we “know” is right that we forget that “knowing” is just the delusion between our two ears.

Gassho,
Jakuden


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I hear you and understand in one sense Jakuden, about the need to stay humble and recognise the limits of our knowing.

However this method of teaching just sounds like when my cousins would wave meat in my face and try to make me eat it when I was a child (and many others since then). Rather than being productive it feels exactly like the bullying that vegetarians face on an almost constant basis...

Gassho,
Dee
ST

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[Bion]

They should have just gone to the taco stand!! No wonder Suzuki was annoyed.

Still don't think this answers the question though - it is pretty crappy to make someone eat a burger if they don't want to - does Zen mean not being allowed to have principles, and that those principles are there to be mocked and worn down?

Gassho
Dee
ST

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

If you don’t mind me butting in, I believe it has more to do with firmly clinging to certain concepts and preferences. They could’ve stopped anywhere from the beginning and the carpenter could’ve either let roshi eat by himself or could’ve ordered something he could eat, but rather he decided to be unreasonable and show very little compassion for his companion all in an attempt to cater to his preference for “pure” food. Intention is a BIG part of every act, so one needs to be aware of WHY they make certain choices.
A couple of years ago I was unexpectedly invited to New Year’s dinner at sone friends’ house but since I wasn’t a part of the original plan they had very little food that I’d eat, given I stay away from meat. So, sitting at that table, grateful for the invitation and surrounded by people who chose to include me in their celebration and offer me their food, I chose to show gratitude and respect and eat whatever was put in front of me while still trying to avoid a couple of things like steaks or bacon etc They were happy, I was fed, and I felt no guilt whatsoever, but rather joy. Next day I went back to my usual diet.

Sorry for the few extra sentences!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jakuden]

I hear you and understand in one sense Jakuden, about the need to stay humble and recognise the limits of our knowing.

However this method of teaching just sounds like when my cousins would wave meat in my face and try to make me eat it when I was a child (and many others since then). Rather than being productive it feels exactly like the bullying that vegetarians face on an almost constant basis...

Gassho,
Dee
ST

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

That sounds like a lot of painful history, there may be a lot of relief from Dukkha and opening to loving teachings when it is someday released. Much Metta to you and to all who have suffered bullying! [emoji120]

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Bion]

Not at all, but “principles” can be attachments and must be held lightly. Making the student eat the burger was a teaching, not a mockery, which is why the story has value. We can ask ourselves if we are so attached to what we “know” is right that we forget that “knowing” is just the delusion between our two ears.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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He could’ve stopped at the first spot and asked for whatever they had without meat or he could’ve just let his companion eat while he stayed hungry, but instead he chose to be selfish. Even in the end when his grilled cheese got taken away he STILL had the choice to not eat it and allow his friend to enjoy the food. But... PREFERENCES [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Eikyo]

That sounds like a lot of painful history, there may be a lot of relief from Dukkha and opening to loving teachings when it is someday released. Much Metta to you and to all who have suffered bullying! [emoji120]

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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Thank you so much Jakuden for your compassion [emoji1431]

Sending metta to you too and all in this sangha. We are all doing our best together and I'm grateful for this space.

Gassho,
Dee
SatToday

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[Jakuden]

If you don’t mind me butting in, I believe it has more to do with firmly clinging to certain concepts and preferences.

Yes, and If we cling so tightly to the revulsion of eating meat, what about when we are facing a real life threatening crisis? Can we learn to hold less tightly to our fears for our very existence? Letting go of a “principle” is just a small step toward the real challenges all of us must face as mortal beings.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday



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[Bion]

I hear you and understand in one sense Jakuden, about the need to stay humble and recognise the limits of our knowing.

However this method of teaching just sounds like when my cousins would wave meat in my face and try to make me eat it when I was a child (and many others since then). Rather than being productive it feels exactly like the bullying that vegetarians face on an almost constant basis...

Gassho,
Dee
ST

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Certain masters have always had pretty rough teaching methods. When Nansen saw the monks fighting over the cat he taught them a big lesson by cutting the cat in two, saying: “if any of you can say a good word, you can save the cat” but since none did, he killed it.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jakuden]

Thank you so much Jakuden for your compassion [emoji1431]

Sending metta to you too and all in this sangha. We are all doing our best together and I'm grateful for this space.

Gassho,
Dee
SatToday

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[emoji120][emoji120][emoji120] Yes we couldn’t do this practice without every single being! Much gratitude [emoji4]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jakuden]

Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

Certain masters have always had pretty rough teaching methods. When Nansen saw the monks fighting over the cat he taught them a big lesson by cutting the cat in two, saying: “if any of you can say a good word, you can save the cat” but since none did, he killed it.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Yes it’s a challenge sometimes to put aside the parts of a teaching that our minds find repellant. Hopefully some of these stories are not true other than in a metaphorical sense. But Zen doesn’t mess around with delicate sensibilities, which are all just products of our deluded minds.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Bion]

Yes it’s a challenge sometimes to put aside the parts of a teaching that our minds find repellant. Hopefully some of these stories are not true other than in a metaphorical sense. But Zen doesn’t mess around with delicate sensibilities, which are all just products of our deluded minds.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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Yeah, allegedly it’s not a true story, but if it were I’d not be surprised at all.
That last phrase you wrote there... that stings many many people who fail to understand that Zen does not mean peaceful and blissful and warm and fuzzy emotions and ego catering.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jakuden]

Yeah, allegedly it’s not a true story, but if it were I’d not be surprised at all.
That last phrase you wrote there... that stings many many people who fail to understand that Zen does not mean peaceful and blissful and warm and fuzzy emotions and ego catering.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Zen is cutting our delusions in two with a sharp sword and ending them. Nothing soft and fuzzy about that. And yet... the cutting is an infinitely compassionate and loving act.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday





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[Bion]

Zen is cutting our delusions in two with a sharp sword and ending them. Nothing soft and fuzzy about that. And yet... the cutting is an infinitely compassionate and loving act.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday





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Thank you very much for this nice talk!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jakuden]

Thank you very much for this nice talk!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[emoji120][emoji120][emoji120] No, thank you!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Eikyo]

Certain masters have always had pretty rough teaching methods. When Nansen saw the monks fighting over the cat he taught them a big lesson by cutting the cat in two, saying: “if any of you can say a good word, you can save the cat” but since none did, he killed it.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Oh my god I sincerely hope that is not true.
That is just outright abusive [emoji15]
Sounds like not everything Zen masters did was right - it would be dangerous to slip into a world where behaviour like that is acceptable.

Gassho,
Dee
ST

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