Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[Risho]

This happens to be something I’m quite passionate about as well; there simply is nothing as nutritionally complete and bio-available for human beings than meat. I appreciate someone who chooses to be vegetarian or vegan but, frankly, I don’t appreciate the constant intimation that it is somehow morally superior. I don’t want to ruffle feathers but I’m just seriously over this conversation lol

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Rich]

Whatever you eat, do it with total awareness .
It’s such a sacred and ‘delicious’ act, you don’t want to miss a thing.
Eating and dreaming at the same time is not right.

Sat
🙏💜

[Meitou]

Whatever you eat, do it with total awareness .
It’s such a sacred and ‘delicious’ act, you don’t want to miss a thing.
Eating and dreaming at the same time is not right.

Sat
����

So important! And to honour what we eat as part of our privilege because as we pick and choose we need to be aware of those who have no choice, and often no food at all.
With gratitude
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[serenewolf]

All living beings are food for others. The industry is terrible, often inhumane, and kills millions of babies and children each day. Vegetarianism/veganism is good if you are in a position to make that choice, many in arctic or mountainous regions arent and cannot be faulted as long as consumption is what they need and not excessive.

Gassho
David
Sat

[Ryudo]

How can it be a matter of personal choice, when the agency of one of the parties is taken away?

������
Gassho SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hello all,

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Ekai]

Due to my personal health issues (which are quite complex and involve both chronic illness and multiple dietary intolerances) and following strict orders from my doctors, I can't live as a vegetarian or a vegan. I am forced to eat meat. Therefore I do not think too much about it. I would probably be a vegetarian if I had a choice.

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

I too have health and interlace issues which prevent me from going vegan as well. I would be all plant-based in a second without those challenges. For example, I have a terrible time with beans, a major source of protein for vegans. It messes up my body for a few days when I eat them. I really wish I could be vegan for the animals and the environment. It's an integral struggle.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Meian]

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

, meian st lh

[Eikyo]

Hello all,

Having food at the table is a miracle of life and one should always be aware and grateful; a lettuce is also a living creature, it's just that we don't hear it scream when it's being dissolved in the acid of our stomachs. Regardless of what you choose to eat, life needs to feed on life to keep going. That's why we don't abuse whatever we eat because food is medicine for our practice and gives us energy to keep sitting Zazen on and on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



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[nknibbs]

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



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With respect, I believe Kyonin’s point was to take into account interconnectedness and the universality of suffering. One cannot understand the suffering of all beings from the viewpoint of humanity’s insufficient grasp on reality. And if one were to engage in such things what of the nuances of human suffering? Can one say that he suffers more than she?

We should strive to abide by our understanding of the precepts and not elevate one’s practice over another’s. We should also thoughtfully consider our food choices regardless of our dietary particulars.

My apologies for going over 3 sentences and thank you all for your viewpoints and practice.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[Eikyo]

With respect, I believe Kyonin’s point was to take into account interconnectedness and the universality of suffering. One cannot understand the suffering of all beings from the viewpoint of humanity’s insufficient grasp on reality. And if one were to engage in such things what of the nuances of human suffering? Can one say that he suffers more than she?

We should strive to abide by our understanding of the precepts and not elevate one’s practice over another’s. We should also thoughtfully consider our food choices regardless of our dietary particulars.

My apologies for going over 3 sentences and thank you all for your viewpoints and practice.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

Hi Nick,

I am certainly not trying to elevate one practice over another but to discuss things so that we can reach a common understanding. If we are saying as Buddhists, we can no longer distinguish between types of suffering, then it is like saying - "who am I to judge, if someone rapes, murders, etc." It would be unethical if we were not allowed to criticise such things.

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[Risho]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Juki]

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

from a vegetarian

Gassho,
Juki
sat today and lah

[Eikyo]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Hi Risho,

I agree, I absolutely don't want to argue as that is just counterproductive. I live with and am married to a meat eater - do we argue, absolutely not! It is his choice.

However when I see people making frankly silly arguments about vegetables crying out in pain as a way to dismiss vegetarianism.... well to me that is intellectual dishonesty and we shouldn't encourage that in our practice.

Far better to recognise the reality of the choices we are making - as you are doing, you are not deceiving yourself, you have looked at the facts and made the decision based on your assessment - as you quite rightly should do!

If people will stop making silly analogies and claiming that animal suffering is the same as vegetable suffering or anything else then I will gladly let this drop. It's not about superiority but intellectual honesty.

(Sorry for running over 3 sentences)

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[nknibbs]

It is absolutely not intellectual dishonesty to acknowledge suffering of all living beings. I also do not think anyone here is dismissing vegetarianism because of that. But subtly criticizing the practice of those that do eat meat (based on a scale of suffering) ascribes to the notion that one’s practice is superior— even if such an expression was unintentional.

And I mean absolutely no disrespect to you and your practice as expressed in your vegetarianism.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

Sorry for going over 3 sentences