Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[nknibbs]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Nick
SatLah

[Meitou]

Dee - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that killing animals doesn't cause suffering. At the same time, I think the point is that we are part of this circle of life. Also at the same time, a lot of the animals that are raised for food live a lot longer than if they were "murdered" in the wild by a predator. I'm not justifying factory farming at all by the way. But we are part of nature, and we are also animals, and we eat animals.

Everything in this universe eats and gets eaten. Frankly, meat contains so much bio-available nutrition not matched by any plant; that's why I eat meat. Now, I understand that anyone who chooses to eat vegetarian or vegan is choosing that path to reduce suffering. I get it, but to me eating is more of a nutritional matter point blank. My diet is very, very disciplined and I don't "live to eat". I eat for nutrition most of the time.

I don't hunt because of time, similar to how I don't farm or build my own house or make my own clothing. If that was my career path, I would absolutely hunt.

I have a high degree of respect for animals that I eat and I have a high degree of gratitude that I can even eat (to Kyonin's point); it's ridiculous that I have to worry more about what to eat or not eat than having to worry about survival. it's an incredibly fortunate position.

Again - I don't know that we can convince each other here on an internet forum to be either vegetarian, vegan or carnivore and I don't know that we should.

I just think the key points are: 1. anyone's choice is there own (thank you Kokuu), 2. although a lot of buddhists tend toward vegetarianism/veganism that isn't a core part of buddhism; so if it's your way of eating that's great, if not that's great and, most importantly, 3. let's not judge each other for what we eat; I think it tends to be divisive and turns into the holier than thou routine - it is not helpful to me in anyway; it's not helpful to you. If you don't eat meat - you have your reasons - and I think it's very egotistical of me to think I can convince you of the "proper way". And I would expect that same

I am not in any way in support of veganism or vegetarianism as much as I'm sure many people here aren't in favor of a mostly animal based diet. Great - beyond that - this just devolves into a religious discussion about what to eat vs not to eat.

Can we just all eat what we want and leave it at that without all this demagoguery?

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Brilliant post Risho
Gassho
Plant based Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Risho]

hahaahah Dee - you are right! Also, I apologize - this topic triggers me. hahahahah good practice

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

PS -> apologies for going over 3 sentences in previous post

[Jakuden]

With respect Kyonin, you don't mean to imply that eating a lettuce is ethically the same as eating an animal, do you?
I think this argument can too easily be used as an excuse to ignore the suffering that is caused when eating meat.
Yes we all feed on life, but some things cause even more suffering than others - and while cruelty free is impossible for anyone (even vegans) it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Gassho,
Dee
Sat today / LAH



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There can be different viewpoints on this without any of those viewpoints being an “excuse.” It’s ok to disagree, but not to invalidate another’s interpretation of the precepts.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Eikyo]

hahaahah Dee - you are right! Also, I apologize - this topic triggers me. hahahahah good practice

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

PS -> apologies for going over 3 sentences in previous post

Gassho Risho!! [emoji1431]

Dee
Sat/LAH

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[Eikyo]

There can be different viewpoints on this without any of those viewpoints being an “excuse.” It’s ok to disagree, but not to invalidate another’s interpretation of the precepts.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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Arrrgh, I must admit I feel like I am being piled on by various people - and it feels like I am being told to be quiet for questioning something that just does not make sense.

Numerous people above have created an equivalence between animal and plant suffering. I am not trying to invalidate anyone's interpretation of the precepts but we are having a discussion, questioning doesn't invalidate their point - that is what these forums are for, right?

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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[gaurdianaq]

Arrrgh, I must admit I feel like I am being piled on by various people - and it feels like I am being told to be quiet for questioning something that just does not make sense.

Numerous people above have created an equivalence between animal and plant suffering. I am not trying to invalidate anyone's interpretation of the precepts but we are having a discussion, questioning doesn't invalidate their point - that is what these forums are for, right?

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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What makes sense to one person might not necessarily make sense to another person. I think a lot of what we practice in Buddhism wouldn't make sense to non Buddhists. To clarify, I don't think plant suffering is the same as animal suffering, and it sounds like you have your head on straight. I know I have used the plant suffering argument before, usually when someone is trying to make the argument that everyone who can be vegetarian should be vegetarian. Honestly my preferred argument is that there is a natural cycle of life/food chain, which involves some species eating meat. Usually when I say that though I get the argument that we as humans, being intelligent and also being omnivorous have the option to reject the carnivorous side of our biology. This to me personally seems like human ego, to believe that because we are intelligent and able to choose that we are above certain things. I'm sure many people here will disagree with me on that, and that's ok as well.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having discussion, so long as you also have the wisdom to realize when you're spinning your wheels and the discussion has stalled (Something I admit I still need to work on). Sorry for going over 3 sentences.


Evan,
Sat today!

[Eikyo]

What makes sense to one person might not necessarily make sense to another person. I think a lot of what we practice in Buddhism wouldn't make sense to non Buddhists. To clarify, I don't think plant suffering is the same as animal suffering, and it sounds like you have your head on straight. I know I have used the plant suffering argument before, usually when someone is trying to make the argument that everyone who can be vegetarian should be vegetarian. Honestly my preferred argument is that there is a natural cycle of life/food chain, which involves some species eating meat. Usually when I say that though I get the argument that we as humans, being intelligent and also being omnivorous have the option to reject the carnivorous side of our biology. This to me personally seems like human ego, to believe that because we are intelligent and able to choose that we are above certain things. I'm sure many people here will disagree with me on that, and that's ok as well.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having discussion, so long as you also have the wisdom to realize when you're spinning your wheels and the discussion has stalled (Something I admit I still need to work on). Sorry for going over 3 sentences.


Evan,
Sat today!

Thank you Evan. Sending metta to you and to all in this discussion [emoji1431]

Gassho,
Dee
Sat/LAH

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[Risho]

You know Treeleaf reminds me a lot of what the Buddha and Dogen did; they set up a community that was vastly different from the chaotic societies of their time; a safe haven so people could practice. Things are not as chaotic in some ways; in others we have our own chaos, but Treeleaf is exactly the same thing in our age. It's an oasis in the internet - a place of bickering and tribalism - here we do get to discuss things civilly instead of talking over each other, which makes it incredibly different from the wild, wild internet. Good stuff

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Naiko]

[QUOTE=sweetde;270058]Arrrgh, I must admit I feel like I am being piled on by various people - and it feels like I am being told to be quiet for questioning something that just does not make sense.

Numerous people above have created an equivalence between animal and plant suffering. I am not trying to invalidate anyone's interpretation of the precepts but we are having a discussion, questioning doesn't invalidate their point - that is what these forums are for, right?

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

Oh, Dee. I commend you for speaking your truth and trying to engage in a productive dialogue. I’m sorry you feel like they piled on you. I take it as a given that vegans/vegetarians are going to get hit with frankly illogical statements, false equivalences, and unsolicited nutrition “advice” that go unchallenged and will be acceptable to most everyone (Hey, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there are folks so sensitive to all life they will swerve on the road to avoid hitting lettuce). I believe what we say gets viewed more critically. Last year’s precept discussion on non-killing was so upsetting to me that I avoided the forums for about two weeks so I wouldn’t post out of anger. It was a hard, hard lesson in letting go and practicing not reacting to others’ views and not clinging to my own. I will certainly be avoiding the discussion again this year if the topic resumes. I’m sorry for exceeding three sentences; I promise to say no more on this topic.
Gassho,
Krista
st

[Risho]

I felt the same way about precept study but it is really good and fundamental to our practice; so don't avoid the discussion - we need to all challenge ourselves to do better and communicate our points of view without attacking each other. That is a substantial practice; let's not be avoidant. let's come together and discuss these items in a civil and comported way

I know I came out swinging last year and was very argumentative; a lot of that had to do with my giving up twitter during ango and I put all my twitter energy into Treeleaf. hahahah I think these things all help us learn and grow together.

It's important for me to remember precept study and posting here is not about me being right. So don't give up - let's just come together and do a better job of talking, and if we do step on each other's toes which happens from time to time let's just apologize and acknowledge it.

Jundo and the priests (I still think that is a great name for a band) do so much to make Ango and Jukai work every year; let's hold up our part and honor them by practicing genuinely, trying our best to keep the precepts and our vows.

Sorry for posting so much today and going over the 3 sentences; this ango time of year pumps me up lol

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[gaurdianaq]

You know Treeleaf reminds me a lot of what the Buddha and Dogen did; they set up a community that was vastly different from the chaotic societies of their time; a safe haven so people could practice. Things are not as chaotic in some ways; in others we have our own chaos, but Treeleaf is exactly the same thing in our age. It's an oasis in the internet - a place of bickering and tribalism - here we do get to discuss things civilly instead of talking over each other, which makes it incredibly different from the wild, wild internet. Good stuff

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

Ya I'm really impressed in that regards. I made a similar thread discussing this subject in the Soto Zen facebook group and it quickly devolved, the admins had to close the thread because people weren't being civil. One person even said I should be banned because "I was clearly trying to sow division in the group..."


Evan,
Sat today!

[nknibbs]

I truly don’t mind anyone’s viewpoint on eating so long as they have thoughtfully considered what they consume whether that is meat or veg. I think you can honor the precept of not killing/honoring life either way as well as acknowledge the interconnectedness of life. Plus, whenever we set up dichotomies we lose a vast portion of the other side’s story and fall victim to blame and shame.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[nknibbs]

Deep bow to Dee for your practice and my sincerest apologies if you felt piled on for sharing your views with the sangha.

Gassho,
Nick
SatLah

[Inshin]

Hi Risho,

I agree, I absolutely don't want to argue as that is just counterproductive. I live with and am married to a meat eater - do we argue, absolutely not! It is his choice.

However when I see people making frankly silly arguments about vegetables crying out in pain as a way to dismiss vegetarianism.... well to me that is intellectual dishonesty and we shouldn't encourage that in our practice.

Far better to recognise the reality of the choices we are making - as you are doing, you are not deceiving yourself, you have looked at the facts and made the decision based on your assessment - as you quite rightly should do!

If people will stop making silly analogies and claiming that animal suffering is the same as vegetable suffering or anything else then I will gladly let this drop. It's not about superiority but intellectual honesty.

(Sorry for running over 3 sentences)

Gassho,
Dee
ST/LAH

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Absolutely! Denying or diminishing animal suffering by saying that plants suffer and everything feeds of everything is a similar process as dehumanisation seen in genocides where victims are perceived as lesser than human, as animals.
The consumption of animal products happens on such a massive scale that it is not sustainable any more not even mentioning the suffering, and as someone who wants to follow the Bodhisattva path I want to reduce consumption of animal product as much as I can even if I can't commit to being vegan/vegetarian 100% of the time.
There are many meat eaters with a bigger heart than some vegans, being vegan doesn't make someone more holy, and if vegans trigger something in people then maybe it's worth investigating what it is, because I doubt it has to do with "superiority" of vegans.

Gassho
Sat