Psychedlic Buddhism?

[Ryumon]

I find this an interesting discussion. There is a strong link between recreational drugs and the dharma in the US, mainly because those interested in the dharma in the second wave of Buddhism (assuming the first was DT Suzuki), were also into doing drugs. There was a feeling that psychedelics and meditation went to the same place. Some of those who are old enough might remember Carlos Castaneda's books, which had a Yaqui shaman feeding him peyote. Those books sold millions in the US, and certainly contributed to the link between "spiritual" practice and hallucinogenics. (Of course, we later learned that these books were essentially fiction.)

I took many such drugs back in the day, and what they showed me was that there was another way of seeing things. At the time, I wasn't interested in the dharma, and it was only some years later - after I had stopped all that "recreation" - that I did discover the dharma, and was able to look at both and see that, while there were some similarities in experiences, that they did not belong together.

I think it's important to not over-exaggerate the number of people who "freak out" from acid and other drugs. This has always been government propaganda, and such cases are rare. Everyone knows someone it happened to, but anyone who did those drugs - at least back in the day - also knows dozens of people to whom such things never happened. There are certainly people who have a predisposition to psychological problems that can be exaggerated through hallucinogenics, but they are not the norm.

And, as others have said, there is much interesting medical research into these drugs. The main difference is that this research is guided (ie, people don't trip on their own), the drugs are pure, and the doses are carefully calculated. When you eat a bunch of peyote buttons, you have no idea how much active ingredient there is in them, and if you take blotter acid, you have no idea exactly what's in it, whether it's LSD or something else.

I certainly don't think there is any place for psychedelics in Zen or Theravada, and as far as I know there's no history of such things in Tibetan Buddhism (though I wouldn't be surprised if there was). I find this recent article very disturbing, and I think it's good that Brad has been so vocal about it. And those Buddhist Geek guys; they're just a bunch of wannabe gurus who latch on to the latest thing. I listened to a few episodes of their podcast - including, I think, one with Jundo - and they didn't seem to be very humble.

And I do plan to read the Michael Pollan book; I heard an interview with him, and it's quite interesting.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

This is a perspective from a guy who lives in a country where drug lords run the economy, the government, education, violence and even pay for public works. To me, recreational or "spiritual" drugs are a no no situation.

Since the 1920's, when drug/alcohol cartels began to grow here thanks to prohibition laws in the US, drugs have been a ghost haunting us. Slowly they have been more and more common and I can see with my own eyes the damage they do to our society. In the last 15 years violence and deaths related to drugs have gone through the roof. Everyone in Mexico has a friend or relative who has died in a drug related situation.

Just last night, a couple houses from mine, there was a neighbor kid that OD'd and was taken to the hospital. I heard a while ago that he might not make it.

Sure, they may be a lot of pacifist people using drugs for spiritual stuff, but the fact is that they are not legal and they are often bought in non-legal ways.

At least for me and my practice, I take an active position against drug use and even more so in any spiritual practice. When people ask me about the topic I, speak to them about the magic of zazen and discipline. Sure, drugs may be a shortcut for feeling funny cosmic things, but I can attest how drugs in any way can crumble the life of millions.

Again, this is just my opinion and I know it's worthless, but using drugs in Buddhist practice is going against the precepts.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jishin]

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ryumon]

This is a perspective from a guy who lives in a country where drug lords run the economy, the government, education, violence and even pay for public works. To me, recreational or "spiritual" drugs are a no no situation.

Since the 1920's, when drug/alcohol cartels began to grow here thanks to prohibition laws in the US, drugs have been a ghost haunting us. Slowly they have been more and more common and I can see with my own eyes the damage they do to our society. In the last 15 years violence and deaths related to drugs have gone through the roof. Everyone in Mexico has a friend or relative who has died in a drug related situation.

Yes, but it is important to separate the type of drugs that have caused so much pain in your country and the type of drugs we're talking about here. They only thing they really have in common is their illegality. I totally agree with you, but this is a very different context.

Otherwise, you'd need to include all psychoactive elements, such as coffee and tea, etc., and even alcohol, and we know where that ends up.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Jishin]

Hi,

I have heard that physicians have been know to use these for medicinal purposes:

Cocaine and the "aine's".

Benzodiazepines and the "am's".

Amphetamines, Methamphetamines and other "ines'".

Cannabiods.

Hallucinogens such as Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide.

Caffeine.

Nicotine.

Opioids in analgesia and addiction.

Alcohol inpatient and outpatient.

Many other examples.

Hard to say what's what in this crazy world.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Chishou]

Hi,

I have heard that physicians have been know to use these for medicinal purposes:

Cocaine and the "aine's".

Benzodiazepines and the "am's".

Amphetamines, Methamphetamines and other "ines'".

Cannabiods.

Hallucinogens such as Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide.

Caffeine.

Nicotine.

Opioids in analgesia and addiction.

Alcohol inpatient and outpatient.

Many other examples.

Hard to say what's what in this crazy world.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

I hear a-lot of people these days are taking dihydrogen monoxide, aka Hydrogen acid or DHMO. When taken in large doses can cause hyponatraemia.

Bows,
Chishou
Sat.


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[Jishin]

I hear a-lot of people these days are taking dihydrogen monoxide, aka Hydrogen acid or DHMO. When taken in large doses can cause hyponatraemia.

Bows,
Chishou
Sat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lethal in high doses.

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Lethal in high doses.

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Maybe Chishou, who is a paramedic in his day job, is just trying to drum up business!

(Sorry, Chishou, couldn't resist).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

Brad Warner Tricycle article on drug use in Buddhism/Zen

Hello all

Following on from his blog post decrying the positive support for drug use in Buddhist magazines such as Lion's Roar, Brother Brad once again sets out his stall firmly against the use of psychedelics/entheogens in Tricycle magazine, a stance which I personally wholly stand behind.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/psychedelics-buddhism

There is strange comment underneath suggesting that the Buddha himself partook of 'magic mushrooms' close to his parinirvana/death to ease his passing but I have not heard of any record of this being talked about and neither had Jundo when I asked him.

Buddha's final meal was given to him by his lay follower Cunda the smith and has been variously translated either as boar meat or truffle mushrooms. Suggesting this refers to mushrooms of the psychoactive Psilocybe variety seems wildly inaccurate but it is not unusual for people to take things out of context to support their own theories. I mention it here in case anyone, as I did, takes the time to read the comments and wonders if there is any truth behind this.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Mitka]

There is strange comment underneath suggesting that the Buddha himself partook of 'magic mushrooms' close to his parinirvana/death to ease his passing but I have not heard of any record of this being talked about and neither had Jundo when I asked him.

Buddha's final meal was given to him by his lay follower Cunda the smith and has been variously translated either as boar meat or truffle mushrooms. Suggesting this refers to mushrooms of the psychoactive Psilocybe variety seems wildly inaccurate but it is not unusual for people to take things out of context to support their own theories. I mention it here in case anyone, as I did, takes the time to read the comments and wonders if there is any truth behind this.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thich Nhat Hanh wrote that it was potentially poisonous mushrooms in his book Old Path White Clouds (they gave Budhha a stomach ache and he instructed the rest of the mushrooms to be buried so others wouldn't eat them). Lots of amanita species are poisonous while also being psychedelic, it is possible he could have consumed something like that. But that is speculation, of course, the same sort of thing as Christians claiing that the "body" of Christ eaten during Communion is really magic mushrooms, or that the oil priests used to anoint kings in the Hebrew scriptures had cannabis in it.

Psychedelics have great potential in therapy, I believe, but in spiritual matters they are poor subsitutes for sitting on your butt everday and doing the hard work, day after day.

Gassho,
Mitka
SAT

[Jishin]

Psychedlic Buddhism?

Buddha is a psychedelic mushroom.

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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meitou]

Hello all

Following on from his blog post decrying the positive support for drug use in Buddhist magazines such as Lion's Roar, Brother Brad once again sets out his stall firmly against the use of psychedelics/entheogens in Tricycle magazine, a stance which I personally wholly stand behind.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/psychedelics-buddhism

There is strange comment underneath suggesting that the Buddha himself partook of 'magic mushrooms' close to his parinirvana/death to ease his passing but I have not heard of any record of this being talked about and neither had Jundo when I asked him.

Buddha's final meal was given to him by his lay follower Cunda the smith and has been variously translated either as boar meat or truffle mushrooms. Suggesting this refers to mushrooms of the psychoactive Psilocybe variety seems wildly inaccurate but it is not unusual for people to take things out of context to support their own theories. I mention it here in case anyone, as I did, takes the time to read the comments and wonders if there is any truth behind this.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

This is a great article ; I'm also 200% behind Warner on this and I applaud him for taking such a stance, but I wouldn't have expected anything else, he is a man of genuine wisdom.
I think that comment about mushrooms was wishful thinking on the behalf of someone with their own agenda!
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

[Rosui]

So um, about seven years ago I was teaching English in central Japan. I was working for a big company and one day I was at the Junior High school I taught at.
Someone looked at the newspaper and say hey someone from the company you work for got caught smuggling hash into the country. They put the guy in the special jail for
foreigners and violent offenders. When the district manager went to talk to him he looked like a shell of his former self. Because of it the largest dispatch company in the country
almost lost all their contracts. They had to do special emergency say no to drugs training for employees that same night.

If you drink and drive whether you have an accident or not you'll lose your job and no one would hire you.
I couldn't even imagine doing something like taking illegal drugs. I'd lose my job. My family would lose their jobs and house.
Take drugs they're great for helping you get enlightened is like the most unfathomable thing I've ever heard of.

Gassho

Rosui

st

[Anka]

I don't think we should ignore the fact that psychedelics may have played a large role in the formations of today's major religions. If you listen to stories from people who have taken some of these substances they are pretty wild. Pairing a very strong experience like one psychedelics can provide with a lack of knowledge in how they work and who knows what could happen. Someone might believe God talked to them, or they reached nirvana, or that there is one soul that is rebirthed over and over again.

Nowadays we understand what these substances do to our brain and how they do it. The mysticism is gone for us. I still believe these substances can be tools to help people overcome psychological issues if use responsibly with a professional. Abusing anything will always lead to negative affects.

James F
Sat

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[Hoseki]

So um, about seven years ago I was teaching English in central Japan. I was working for a big company and one day I was at the Junior High school I taught at.
Someone looked at the newspaper and say hey someone from the company you work for got caught smuggling hash into the country. They put the guy in the special jail for
foreigners and violent offenders. When the district manager went to talk to him he looked like a shell of his former self. Because of it the largest dispatch company in the country
almost lost all their contracts. They had to do special emergency say no to drugs training for employees that same night.

If you drink and drive whether you have an accident or not you'll lose your job and no one would hire you.
I couldn't even imagine doing something like taking illegal drugs. I'd lose my job. My family would lose their jobs and house.
Take drugs they're great for helping you get enlightened is like the most unfathomable thing I've ever heard of.

Gassho

Rosui

st

Hi Rosui,

I think a lot of what you described is the result of the cultural milieu you were in. Where I live drinking alcohol is ingrained in the culture. When a friend from work mentioned he didn't drink I was kind of taken back. But apparently he just grew up in a place where they didn't drink much. I didn't realize how much of an expectation for drinking I had until he mentioned it.

If you take a step back from the illegality of "drugs" I think you will see that they are just substances that affect us to a greater degree than many of the substances we normally take into ourselves. Can it lead to problems? Sure but most things can be abused. At the end of the day I think much of the problem with drugs isn't their use but how we react to their use.

Gassho

Hoseki
Sattoday