Psychedlic Buddhism?

[Chishou]

You must be on drugs.

Gassho, J

STLah

He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy.


Chishou.


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[Kotei]

You must be on drugs.

Gassho, J

STLah

I say you are, Lord, and I should know, I've followed a few!

edit: sorry, was carried away by that Monty Python reference. Gassho.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Chishou]

I say you are, Lord, and I should know, I've followed a few!

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

This thread is good enough for Jehovah.

C.


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[Jundo]

Conversation back on track please.

[Nanrin]

This is a very touchy subject, much more than I expected when I first started this topic. As Rosui noted, a lot of people experience, directly and indirectly, drugs completely destroying people's lives. Whereas others have seen or experienced them turn lives around. I myself have seen both sides of the coin. I used to tutor a really cool kid who completely fried his brain by taking psychoactive mushrooms over and over again, growing more and more paranoid until he finally killed himself. A friend of mine who was severely depressed and had multiple suicide attempts to her name took the same psychoactive mushrooms once, and swears that once the trip was over her depression was gone and never came back and her life just kind of blossomed after that. She never used any illicit drugs again that I know of; doesn't even drink. I myself have benefited greatly from medicinal use of cannabis for depression and joint pain, and have also seen formerly vibrant friends smoke themselves into useless lumps. Whether positive or negative, the experiences that people have with these substances are exceptionally powerful ones that reach some of deepest and rawest emotions. I think whatever our perspective on these issues, we would do well to remember that fact before jumping to conclusions about each other, and to take a deep breath and be patient with each other as we process the powerful and painful emotions that come up around this subject.
Gassho
Nick
Satlah

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Very well said. Your personal examples of people whose lives are "saved" and "destroyed" by the same substance is very interesting. Someone close to me used to play with a number of addictive drugs but eventually walked away from them all without a fight, other people ended up highly addicted. Drugs are playing with fire - sometimes you cook the food and have a delicious meal, sometimes you cook your skin and have a painful wound.

I think drugs are as Buddhist as romance. Certainly important in the lives of many, but otherwise not really a part of the path.

Romantic love saves some, kills others, sometimes doesn't do either. It's not necessary in life and usually leads to delusion and attachment. At the same time, it can teach a lot and be transformative. Avoiding it altogether is certaiy a wise strategy, but not the only strategy. Marriage can be a stable way to live; I'm not sure long-term psychoactive drug use is anywhere as stable though.

Gassho

Maitri

SatToday

[Meitou]

Addiction is our problem. Not yours, mine or the girl who died from a heroin overdose. We speak of addiction in separatist terms.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Yes, this is such an important point - and something that needs remembering in conversations about addiction especially. We don't have a problem seeing pollution of the oceans and climate change as our collective responsibility and so it should be with our interractions with our fellow sentient beings. Thank you Jishin for making me more aware of this.
Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltodaylah

[Mp]

Just say no to drugs, period! Drugs destroy people, theirs lives, and the lives of the one's around them, period!

Psychedelics in my opinion do help, they only harm. Anyone can spin anything to support their narrative.

Just sit and do your best to accept life as it is, simple!

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jishin]

Anyone can spin anything to support their narrative.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

I will perhaps offer one or two exceptions, which is just my personal feeling.

We do not mix drugs (whether alcohol, pot or psilocybin) with Zazen and this wondrous, miraculous "ordinary" life. We sometimes forget how amazing is what is right before our eyes without any chemical assistance. I heard someone today say that the greatest "trip" does not involves either taking acid or getting on a plane to an exotic place, but just opening one's eyes and seeing!

However, there may be times ... under guided therapeutic conditions, in the proper setting, for certain moments in life ... to perhaps lightly experiment with "mind altering" substances. I am thinking of some of the work being done recently at universities about psilocybin and the terminally ill.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/hallucinogenic_drug_psilocybin_eases_existential_anxiety_in_people_with_life_threatening_cancer_

I say "guided and proper," because I have seen too many folks go wrong with self experimentation, especially in excess or when it interfered with other parts of their life. Like a visit to the Grand Canyon, such experimentation can be eye opening and insightful, but we do not and cannot want to live and remain there. We also want a good guide to keep us from falling off a cliff.

Also, for someone without addiction issues (and who also doesn't get behind the wheel of a car ... or live in a place in Japan where the police treat pot and heroin much the same), perhaps moderate and occasional social drinking or pot smoking is harmless. However, I have seen too many friends get themselves (and their families) all messed up with excess alcohol and extreme drug use, any physical effects aside. And for an addict or someone with some other sensitivity, even one drop may be poison.

Just my personal feeling, and we can discuss this more when we approach the "Precept on avoiding intoxication" in a few weeks.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Drugs are bad. No doubt. Some have no choice as to their use. It's genetic.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

I will perhaps offer one or two exceptions, which is just my personal feeling.

We do not mix drugs (whether alcohol, pot or psilocybin) with Zazen and this wondrous, miraculous "ordinary" life. We sometimes forget how amazing is what is right before our eyes without any chemical assistance. I heard someone today say that the greatest "trip" does not involves either taking acid or getting on a plane to an exotic place, but just opening one's eyes and seeing!

However, there may be times ... under guided therapeutic conditions, in the proper setting, for certain moments in life ... to perhaps lightly experiment with "mind altering" substances. I am thinking of some of the work being done recently at universities about psilocybin and the terminally ill.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/hallucinogenic_drug_psilocybin_eases_existential_anxiety_in_people_with_life_threatening_cancer_

I say "guided and proper," because I have seen too many folks go wrong with self experimentation, especially in excess or when it interfered with other parts of their life. Like a visit to the Grand Canyon, such experimentation can be eye opening and insightful, but we do not and cannot want to live and remain there. We also want a good guide to keep us from falling off a cliff.

Also, for someone without addiction issues (and who also doesn't get behind the wheel of a car ... or live in a place in Japan where the police treat pot and heroin much the same), perhaps moderate and occasional social drinking or pot smoking is harmless. However, I have seen too many friends get themselves (and their families) all messed up with excess alcohol and extreme drug use, any physical effects aside. And for an addict or someone with some other sensitivity, even one drop may be poison.

Just my personal feeling, and we can discuss this more when we approach the "Precept on avoiding intoxication" in a few weeks.

Gassho, J

STLah

Oh yes, I agree ... if someone is dying of a terminal illness, then we should do what we can to lessen their pain and help with their remaining quality of life.

My reference is to using drugs for recreational, spiritual, or to support one's own personal narrative on how they see the world or how the world should be.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jishin]

I am thinking of some of the work being done recently at universities about psilocybin and the terminally ill.

Ketamine (hallucinogen) is about to get FDA approval for intranasal use. It has been used intravenously off label for terminal cases of mood disorders. This is a very exciting development in psychiatry. It will save a lot of lives given that the suicide rate is one percent in the general population and much higher in people with mood disorders.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Chishou]

So, I wanted to tell you a little about something that happened today.

A few days ago I injured my rotator cuff (shoulder) again at work. The usual over-the-counter meds didn’t help and it was proving difficult to do most things. So talking with a medical contact I was given a strong dose of codeine.

I took the first dose about an hour before my evening sit. During said sit I felt strangely okay with everything and ended up sitting for just over 50 mins. I didn’t feel high or spaced out etc etc just at peace the noise outside, the draft coming in the window and the pain in my shoulder.

Not sure if it was coincidental or related. I sit again without any pain relief tomorrow and see.

Bows
Chishou
Sat


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[Jundo]

So, I wanted to tell you a little about something that happened today.

A few days ago I injured my rotator cuff (shoulder) again at work. The usual over-the-counter meds didn’t help and it was proving difficult to do most things. So talking with a medical contact I was given a strong dose of codeine.

I took the first dose about an hour before my evening sit. During said sit I felt strangely okay with everything and ended up sitting for just over 50 mins. I didn’t feel high or spaced out etc etc just at peace the noise outside, the draft coming in the window and the pain in my shoulder.

Not sure if it was coincidental or related. I sit again without any pain relief tomorrow and see.

Bows
Chishou
Sat

Yes, well, I am sure it was pleasant. Codeine is very strong.

Don't make it a habit ... literally.

If in a few months you are sitting Zazen in back alleys, you will know where the habit started.

Gassho, J

SaTodayLAH

[Meitou]

So, I wanted to tell you a little about something that happened today.

A few days ago I injured my rotator cuff (shoulder) again at work. The usual over-the-counter meds didn’t help and it was proving difficult to do most things. So talking with a medical contact I was given a strong dose of codeine.

I took the first dose about an hour before my evening sit. During said sit I felt strangely okay with everything and ended up sitting for just over 50 mins. I didn’t feel high or spaced out etc etc just at peace the noise outside, the draft coming in the window and the pain in my shoulder.

Not sure if it was coincidental or related. I sit again without any pain relief tomorrow and see.

Bows
Chishou
Sat


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Codeine can be really spacey at strength, it's a powerful ( and addictive) opiate and a great painkiller. When I was a teenager I used to take it every month for period pain, back in the day in the UK you could get it in very large dosage over the counter, I'm not sure if that's the case today. Also back then a certain make of cough mixture contained codeine ( might have been Benylin) which was very popular with us teens. 50 years ago and nothing changes much
I hope your shoulder gets better quickly and you're soon back to full strength.
Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltoday