Psychedlic Buddhism?

[Tairin]

I finally had a chance to read the Lion’s Roar article posted above https://www.lionsroar.com/the-new-wa...hist-practice/

Most of the article comes out neutral to supportive of the use of psychedelics and Buddhism but this quote really caught my eye

Shugen Arnold, abbot of Zen Mountain Monastery and the Zen Center of New York City, is wary. “I wonder about the influence of our culture in terms of seeking very powerful experiences, hoping that those experiences are going to save us,” Arnold explains. “People are looking for shortcuts, even in Buddhism—they want to ‘expedite the path’ and some are hoping psychedelics will do that. But those influences are so pervasive in our culture that it merits being cautious.”

The bold texts are mine.

I very much like Brad Warner’s helicopter analogy. Frankly (and perhaps) stubbornly my view is that I’d rather take the harder path and do it myself than rely on some expedient means. Probably the statement that has stuck with me the most from “Zen Mind, Beginners Mind” is the comment about how Suzuki had never attained satori. Satori, as described in “The Three Pillars of Zen” does not sound sustainable. I am much more in the camp of believing that “enlightenment” (whatever that means) is waking up to the journey that is life and not some climatic endpoint.

Anyways that’s just me.


Tairin
Sat today

[Chishou]

Someone is hardly an armchair Buddhist because they haven't brought someone back from overdose.

I have reversed overdoses and sustained the lives of the non-reversible ones. I do not see how is might influence my practice other than to uphold my bodhisattva vows to save all beings. But then again, the barista in the coffee shop has saved me more than a few times.

Bows,
Chishou.




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[Ryushi]

During the discussion, one of the supporters of drug abuse as a way to gain spiritual insight started in with the time worn cliché that drugs are like taking a helicopter to the top of a mountain rather than climbing it. You get the same breathtaking view as someone who has climbed the mountain. But you get there much quicker and more easily. “You can’t deny it’s exactly the same view,” one guy said.

This person seems to be confused as to the point. In Zen, as in mountain climbing, reaching the peak is not the point. The climb is the point.

Sat today. Gassho.

[Jishin]

I have reversed overdoses and sustained the lives of the non-reversible ones.

This is practice.

Thank you for your practice.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Doshin]

I have reversed overdoses and sustained the lives of the non-reversible ones. I do not see how is might influence my practice other than to uphold my bodhisattva vows to save all beings. But then again, the barista in the coffee shop has saved me more than a few times.

Bows,
Chishou.




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Bows to you and also to the baristas of the world!!

Gassho and thanks for the works you do

Doshin
St

[Jishin]

Oops. Forgot the great baristas!

[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Probably the statement that has stuck with me the most from “Zen Mind, Beginners Mind” is the comment about how Suzuki had never attained satori. Satori, as described in “The Three Pillars of Zen” does not sound sustainable. I am much more in the camp of believing that “enlightenment” (whatever that means) is waking up to the journey that is life and not some climatic endpoint.

Just a footnote here on Suzuki Roshi and "Satori/Enlightenment" ...

It depends on what is meant by "Satori," and whether that which is always true and present is thus ever something "attained."

For example, in his lectures on the Sandokai, Suzuki said this ...

Ri no kano mo mata satori ni arazu. Satori is "enlightenment"-No, not
enlightenment. It is better not to say anything. If I translate it into English it
is ji already. [Ji is something which you can see, or hear, or smell or taste, and it includes
objects of thinking or ideas. Whatever can be introduced into your consciousness
is ji. Something which is beyond our conscious world is ri.] If you "recognize"-kai, as in San-do-kai- if you recognize the
point, if you make some point about ri, it is not enlightenment. Enlightenment
is not something you can experience, actually. Enlightenment is beyond
our experience. At the same time, if you think that enlightenment is beyond
our experience, something which you cannot experience, if when you hear
someone say " I have attained enlightenment" you think he is wrong, it means
that you stick to some explanation of enlightenment, you stick to words.
That is delusion. So you cannot say, there is no enlightenment, or there is
enlightenment. Enlightenment is not something which you can say there is,
or there is not. And at the same time, something which you can experience
is enlightenment too.

http://cuke.com/pdf-2013/srl/v14-sandokai-lec-no3.pdf

End of footnote.

Gassho, J

STLand

[Jakuden]

Just a footnote here on Suzuki Roshi and "Satori/Enlightenment" ...

It depends on what is meant by "Satori," and whether that which is always true and present is thus ever something "attained."

For example, in his lectures on the Sandokai, Suzuki said this ...



End of footnote.

Gassho, J

STLand

Thank you Jundo, that really says it all on the non-subject of enlightenment

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Aurkihnowe]

as regarding psychedelics/entheogens, i think alan watts put it best..."when you get the message, hang up the phone"\



gassho

rich

sat today

[Kokuu]

Hello all

Let us remember that drug use is rarely a completely safe endeavour even with knowledgeable teachers. This report of the death of a British student in 2014 at a Colombian yagé ceremony was published in today's Guardian newspaper:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/29/briton-19-dies-after-taking-hallucinogen-at-colombian-ritual

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Mitka]

I think one reason people combine practice with entheogens is that they are looking for a shortcut. Read most Buddhist literature, and it appears that it takes at least several years to get into the depth of the practice. Some people believe that that is too long so they look for a shorter path. Unfortunately, as with everything, those things bought cheaply never last. Transformation has to come from hard work. Maybe they will experience a blissful "Enlightenment" moment if the setting and their minds are right, but afterwards they are likely to forget it and go back to their normal lives.

I would also add to Kokuu's post above that psychedelics in some individuals can manifest underlying psychosis which many times can be permanent. I have a feeling I am one of those people, most of my trips have been bad trips, and now I abstain from psychedelics altogether.

[Chishou]

I would also add to Kokuu's post above that psychedelics in some individuals can manifest underlying psychosis which many times can be permanent. I have a feeling I am one of those people, most of my trips have been bad trips, and now I abstain from psychedelics altogether.

This is something Brad Warner has talked about, he describes as: When sitting zazen, we slowly chip away at our attachments to expose our true selves, giving us time to deal with one issues over a long period of time. With drugs we open the floods gates and have to face our problems in one tsunami.

Bow,
Chishou
Sat


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[Rakurei]

I brought this up a few moons ago - namely centered around Vincent Horn and Buddhist Geek's penchant for psychedelics. A podcast I used to enjoy, turned into a weekly chat with spiritual leaders on "if they liked psychadelics or not" lol.

What troubled me about his podcast, is that he admits he started using psychedelics because planning concurrent retreats was stressing him out - and he wanted an escape. He even mentions having a psychotic breakdown after a bad trip. That's the issue I find - it's form of escape being marketed towards millennials as spirituality. I'm not even anti-psychs. Do what you wish, but don't call it Buddhism.

I enjoy this 1996 roundtable which has Ram Dass, Roshi Joan Halifax, Aitken Roshi and Baker Roshi. Baker seems to echo a lot of the consensus here.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/roundtable-help-or-hindrance/

Lastly - I don't want this to become a gossip column, but what's the deal with the Ram Dass crew? I feel like a lot of the resurgence of drugs as an "upaya" comes from his Be Here Now network of podcasts. And I read Be Here Now .... wasn't the whole point he took LSD, liked it - but his Guru said it was a crutch lol? I'm stunned at how that went over everyone's heads, and the same crowd promotes the hell out of psychs as spirtuality.

Anywho - if anything, check out the tricycle article.

ST,

Rakurei

[Kotei]

Hi all,

I agree with the baseline of the postings, but think that there might be an exception.
These days, psychedelics in palliative care seem to be explored further.
There are some ongoing studies with patients, who suffer from extreme anxiety about dying and what's afterwards.
Under supervision of professionals, of course, a significant number of patients seem to gain their insights this way and report improvement.
If this proves true, it is a valid reason for taking the helicopter shortcut to the mountains peek, imho.
The risk of addiction does not exist there.

edit: this document is a little off ,imho, but describes some studies further down.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/57d0/595332d7f1f0a5135f004a3076ea6da5db63.pdf

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Anka]

It seems my thoughts here align with many others. I have no problem with people trying psychedelics under proper care of professionals. The current trials of using mdma (I think) to help soldiers with PTSD look very promising.

Spiritually I think they can be utilized as a kick start or reset on a person's practice. They are a tool that should not be used regularly but I see no need to avoid them at all times. Honestly they intrigue me a lot and if given an opportunity to experience them with a professional, I likely would not turn it down. That being said, I will not go out and actively search for them.

James F
SAT lah

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