The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Frank Murray]

This thread is packed full of really helpful insights and references. Many of my questions have been answered. I deeply appreciate the views expressed here and agree that it’s a wide topic.

I have been transitioning to a largely vegetarian lifestyle over the years in waves, however my wife’s cultural background is very big on meat eating. This has presented challenges we have worked through to certain degrees. We have found mutually comfortable and practical solutions which work well most of the time.

The reason for researching community views and seeking support is that recently I have been feeling quite emotionally sensitive about eating meat. To a point where if I am served cooked meat I can sometimes feel traumatised by the sadness triggered. I sometimes cannot bring myself to eat the meat served even if it means wasting good food, which can feel depressing.

I guess it’s a matter of letting these issues unfold and go wherever they need to go? I feel fairly certain that my feelings are connected to my love of animals and animal companionship.

Interestingly, I have never expected my four legged friends to be vegetarian or eat less meat. So, it’s a curious topic in some ways.

Gassho

Frank

Sat today, Lent a hand today.







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[Mr_Kha]

Well, most vegetarians and vegans I know do not like to hear, but humans are part of nature, and we naturally eat both, vegetables and meat. The Buddha never forbad eating meat - the Patimokkha clearly states that. Vietnamese Buddhists all eat meat and all I do, is to be aware when I eat meat that I am eating something that was once a living being.

When I was younger, in Germany, it was not common to have meat 3-times a day. The Sunday lunch with my grandparents was special. Then later, when my parents earned more, meat came more often on the table and finally it was really every day. But Western societies are too obsessive with meat. The first precept clearly states the harming of living beings. It is just a convention that this is "meat". What about living beings which are harmed by growing vegatables or eating them? I know of a lot of Buddhist monks, Zen masters too, who eat meat because they argue it does not matter whether bacteria and small worms etc are harmed or bigger animals.

The Buddha as an enlightened being clearly knew about humans. He knew that we can eat vegetables but that humans also need meat. Today, we have chemistry to provide us with all those essential proteins we can only obtain from meat. So, we can actually live vegan or vegetarian.

Vietnam, where I live, still is a country with low nutrition. About 20 years ago, there were famines and there are still regions where everyday food is something special. Even Buddhist monks had to eat what they could find. They just did not argue about that.

However, I agree that most socities have lost their mind and do not know how to treat animals any more.

Gassho
Karsten

I sat today

[Rosui]

I was vegan for eight years. It was a pain because I live in a pretty rural area so I had to cook everything myself. I'd go to a restaurant with friends and get like lettuce or steamed broccoli. Also you really have to pay attention to your nutritional balance more than usual. I developed a soy allergy and I gained a lot of weight and couldn't lose it even when I went on weight watchers. Everyone said I looked sick.
I started lifting weights and running a lot and going to the gym for four hours six days a week so I started eating meat because any vegetarian protein powders were crazy expensive at the time. After that I went to Japan and lost seventy pounds in two months. I call that the miracle go live in a strict Japanese monastery diet. My current Zen teacher says even if you eat vegetables you're still killing and causing suffering to the vegetables so the most important point is to be thankful to and for whatever you're eating because it gave its life to you so you need to honor that sacrifice and do the best you can because of it.

Gassho
Rosui
st

[Frank Murray]

Thank you Rosui.

That makes a lot of sense and is a very helpful way to look at it.

Gassho

Frank


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[Mp]

I was vegan for eight years. It was a pain because I live in a pretty rural area so I had to cook everything myself. I'd go to a restaurant with friends and get like lettuce or steamed broccoli. Also you really have to pay attention to your nutritional balance more than usual. I developed a soy allergy and I gained a lot of weight and couldn't lose it even when I went on weight watchers. Everyone said I looked sick.
I started lifting weights and running a lot and going to the gym for four hours six days a week so I started eating meat because any vegetarian protein powders were crazy expensive at the time. After that I went to Japan and lost seventy pounds in two months. I call that the miracle go live in a strict Japanese monastery diet. My current Zen teacher says even if you eat vegetables you're still killing and causing suffering to the vegetables so the most important point is to be thankful to and for whatever you're eating because it gave its life to you so you need to honor that sacrifice and do the best you can because of it.

Gassho
Rosui
st

Hey folks,

I personally feel it is not about being a meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan (or whether one is better then the other) - these are just life style choices we humans have created. ALL living organisms on this planet kill, it is a part of living this life and one cannot be free from it. The most important thing I believe is gratitude for what we have and to do our best with it i.e. don't waste food. Don't take life if it is not needed.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Joyo]

In the years I've been on Treeleaf, this topic has come up many times. I see a lot of people posting in favor of eating meat, justifying it because it is healthier and eating vegetables causes suffering and death also. I'm not one to judge, my husband and kids eat meat, and today, for example, I am going to bake them breaded fish.

However, I have been a very health vegetarian for 25 years. I have been pregnant twice, and grew two healthy babies on a meat-free diet. Five years ago I turned vegan (besides the occasional yogurt and ice cream) and my health got even better. I too live in a rural area with farming and ranching being the main source of income. I don't find this a problem. And what chemistry provides nutrients for a vegan? People have successfully lived as vegans and vegetarians for generations. I take B12 supplement on occasion, other than that my diet is free of "chemistry" including processed foods. Again, this isn't to judge (or brag) but to provide an example, that you can live healthy without animal products, if you so choose.

As for eating plants causing suffering, well yes that is true. I don't see how there's a way of getting around that, as we need to eat. But let's not forget that cows go through excruciating torture to be put on your plate. Growing up on a ranch, I heard them scream in agony while being branded. They have their horns cut off with a big clamp while the blood spurts all over their face and all over everything yet they are squeezed into a contraption that makes them unable to move, yet they struggle desperately while they suffer in agony. And the cries, for days on end, then their calves are taken away from them in the fall. I apologize for being graphic, but this is what happens. I don't see how one justifies the other.

I understand there are people on Treeleaf who feel better eating meat, I understand that this is a touchy topic. I left a Buddhist facebook group recently because the vegans on there were loud and proud about not eating meat, and it annoyed the heck out of me. However, I find that both sides can be pretty loud, and forceful with their views, not just the vegans.

Gassho,
Joyo
just sat/lah

one last point, about "chemistry" I think chemistry keeps a lot of people healthier, including meat eaters. I see a lot of meat eaters taking vitamins, supplements, and medications. So I don't think it's a fair assessment to say chemistry is what helps vegans get their essential proteins, and if you saw my diet you'd see that I am a very good example as to why that is not true. Protein is overrated in this country. We need it, yes, but not in huge amounts like we are lead to believe. I get plenty of protein from lentils, chickpeas, as well as fruits and vegetables, as do many other vegans.

[Anka]

Joyo,

In the last year I struggled with my health and diet. I tried going closer to vegitarian but was faced with rollercoaster energy throughout the day and worse bowel issues which made life difficult. I also caught constant hunger. During this time my girlfriend began a fat heavy diet (keto). She started dropping weight (We were both technically obese). More importantly her PCOS symptoms cleared up entirely. She could finally function during that time of the month instead of being stranded in bed with strong pain.

I switched my diet to keto and experienced the following. Better mental function, steady energy throughout the day, normal bowel functionality, and most important to me as I struggled with weight most of my life decreased hunger (down 45lbs now!).

Throughout this i did think about the cruelty of factory farming and it made the transition difficult in that way. We now source most of our meat from a service that only deals with farms who grass feed and humanely raise their livestock. We also push to use more organ meat and bones (broth) to try and honor the animal by using as much as we can.

As others have stated we cause suffering just by existing. Modern agriculture kills millions of bugs and many small animals itself. It also sucks all the nutrients out of the soil which effectively leaves it dead. Humanity has a lot of work to do on producing a sustainable and humane food chain.

Now you said you had health benefits with vegitarian and vegan diet, that is wonderfull! However, everyone is different. Personally I function better with a high fat diet including animal products. I would not want anyone to hurt their health to fit in with any idyllic method of eating.

I just wanted to share another experience on the topic of food. I apologise if my choice of food or the word i have offered offends anyone.

James F
Sat lah

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[Joyo]

However, everyone is different. Personally I function better with a high fat diet including animal products. I would not want anyone to hurt their health to fit in with any idyllic method of eating.



James F
Sat lah

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Which is why I said "I understand some people say they feel better eating meat" and "I am cooking fish for my (meat-eating) family tonight"

My point was, and if I may put it more bluntly--I find there's often an attitude from meat-eaters, and most often Buddhist meat-eaters, that vegan Buddhists are a bunch of hippies, who are naive in thinking they are helping the planet because they cause killings also, and the vegan diet is totally unhealthy and/or they are again naive because chemistry is keeping them healthy. This is all far from the truth.

I am glad you have found a diet to help you and your girlfriend help with your health concerns. I am also very glad to hear you are so conscientious about where your meat comes from. I really hope the world start to change and more people are as thoughtful as you are in regards to where your meat comes from.


Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jishin]

Hi,

I did vegetarian/vegan for 3 years but no more. That said...

IMG_0224.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Anka]

Joyo,

It's interesting to hear a vegitarian / vegan feeling deffensive of their choices on food with other Buddhists. I fully anticipated that would be my situation as commonly people pair vegetarianism or veganism with Buddhists. I am sorry if I have at all added to that feeling via my post.

James F
SAT lah



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[Jundo]

Joyo,

It's interesting to hear a vegitarian / vegan feeling deffensive of their choices on food with other Buddhists. I fully anticipated that would be my situation as commonly people pair vegetarianism or veganism with Buddhists. I am sorry if I have at all added to that feeling via my post.

James F
SAT lah



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Oh, yes, it is jungle out there, veggie and non-veggie Buddhist going at it like tigers and bears.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Troy]

The First Precept and Eating Meat

This topic can be a sensitive one. I don’t presume to tell anyone what they “should” do or not do. I can only say what choices I have made and why. I recognize when people don’t have access to food any food is better than no food. Starvation can make moral choices about diet seem trivial.

I am vegetarian and frequently eat vegan meals. I have been vegetarian, then vegan, back to vegetarian and now slowly migrating to vegan again. I acknowledge the agriculture that generates my food results in the deaths of insects, small animals and displaces the habitat of larger animals and destroys local ecosystems. However, I choose to eat a plant based diet because I believe it causes less suffering, is healthier, and is more sustainable.



Sat2day

[Horin]

I have great respect of people that dont eat meat at all.. for myself i can say that, since ive got children, just buy meat of local farms with good conditions for the animals and quality. its hard for me to renounce meat completly so i have some cognitive dissonance sometimes.

[Aurkihnowe]

as someone who has been slowly transitioning towards veganism, this is an interesting thread...my personal issue with eating meat is that i have become aware that animals are no longer simply killed and eaten, but PROCESSED, in an unhealthy way, including incredibly uncomfortable crowded conditions, pumped full of hormones that are painful for them to live with (not to meantion bad for our bodies)...i went full vegan a couple weeks ago, after going back and forth for awhile, (mostly because i live in area where veganism is not supported very strongly), and after digesting videos of horrors like chick grinders (male chicks are considered pointless because they can't make eggs), calf slaughter, forced impregnation to induce milk, etc...i have argued with myself when eating meat that the animal is already dead, so there's no harm in eating it, but i decided i no longer wanted to participate, in my small way, with an industry that is polluting our bodies and environment, creating unecessary suffering, etc. I could go on, but my soapbox is collapsing under my weight...

anyway thats my two cents

gassho

rich

sat today

[Joyo]

Joyo,

It's interesting to hear a vegitarian / vegan feeling deffensive of their choices on food with other Buddhists. I fully anticipated that would be my situation as commonly people pair vegetarianism or veganism with Buddhists. I am sorry if I have at all added to that feeling via my post.

James F
SAT lah



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Thank you, but no you have not added to this at all. So no, your post was all good. =) I find, there's a big difference between sharing our experiences and opinions (such as you and I did, which is how we learn from one another) and talking down to others because of choices they make.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah