The First Precept and Eating Meat

[aprapti]

thank you Kyonin. I (we?) don't realize always how lucky we are over here..


Coos
std

[Doshin]

Kyonin

Thank you for sharing.



Doshin
St/LAH

[Jakuden]

Hi guys,

As you know I am in Mexico and I also have traveled to and have a lot of friends/family in many places in South America. Poverty is huge and people would eat whatever is available and they don't have the luxury to pick nutrition based on philosophy. People eat whatever they can manage to find.

Going organic, fair trade, buying at farmer's markets or Whole Foods... all that are luxuries for first world countries.

Just this week a friend in Venezuela was happy to the tears because she could afford (and was lucky to find in the black market) some bread, a few eggs and butter, which was a nice change from lard and pasta.

In the high lands of Peru people have to eat rats and gophers.

In many towns in Mexico people would eat industrial breads like Twinkies and give Coke to new born babies because they can't afford milk, but Capitalist food is everywhere and super cheap. There are also towns where food is so scarce that people hunt for pigeons and eat ants or worms.

In Bolivia a friend and her husband feel blessed when they can find tomatoes because all they can afford is alpaca or llama meat and some mountain roots and greens, since their family had to learn to grow the animals. Fair food distribution is unheard there.

In poor towns in Colombia people will eat the whole pig and they won't throw anything away. The whole population of a town would gather for ceremonial killing of the animal, prepare it and eat it all. Yes, intestines included (which by the way are by far the most nutritious part of the animal).

The examples are too many to list.

Me? Eating animal fat and protein saved my life keeping me away from heart disease and diabetes, and helped me rebuild my knees and back.

But my point is: if veganism works for you, good. But don't judge people. You don't know the different stories, cultures and reasons.

At the end, living beings will do whatever they can to keep life alive.

But then again, that's just a simple man's opinion.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[emoji120]
Thank you so much for this post Kyonin! That was the perspective really lacking from this thread. Even in the US, although some of us can have this debate, many cannot. I wouldn't presume to promote veganism to my neighbors who work so hard 24-7 to make a living from their dairy farm, which has been their families' sustenance for generations.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shoka]

[emoji120]
Thank you so much for this post Kyonin! That was the perspective really lacking from this thread. Even in the US, although some of us can have this debate, many cannot. I wouldn't presume to promote veganism to my neighbors who work so hard 24-7 to make a living from their dairy farm, which has been their families' sustenance for generations.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jakuden,

It is so true. In Los Angeles there are many who can't understand why everyone does eat organic, gluten free, vegan, fair trade, etc etc. I'm often told, "It isn't that much more expensive" but they don't see that the few extra dollars just aren't there for many people. And there are plenty of people who live in areas where that isn't even a possibility.

I have a garden and I know for most of the gardeners it is a hobby, we go and enjoy growing stuff. But there are a few of the plots owner who use the garden to grow their produce. Harvest what they need, and what they eat that week depends on what has grown. Their plots look different than others, they aren't neat and tidy with walkways and the plants spread out in pretty patterns. Their plots don't sit empty during the winter or go untended when a heatwave hits.

It is a good to remember we are very fortunate be to able to debate the merits of different eating styles, and we shouldn't judge others for their decisions.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Risho]

damn, kyonin right on!

gassho

risho
-st

[Jika]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

[Catherine]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Catherine]

Dear Jika, you make a very good point with respect to the hegemony of the powerful meat industry which devastates the natural environment to the detriment mostly of poorer communities. While we ought not judge those who must eat meat for survival, the most powerful action that we in wealthier countries can do to protect the environment and to support the suffering poor in other parts of the world, is to desist from, or at least reduce, meat consumption. Therefore, thank you for your point. I really hope you do not leave!
Gassho
Cathy
Sat today


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Joyo]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jakuden]

The chapter we are reading in the book club discusses what is meant by taking refuge in Sangha, and this thread is a good example... like chopping vegetables and putting them in a pot to make soup so that the flavors harmonize, we are individuals who harmonize with each other to form a community with the taste of the Dharma. I find my own viewpoint significantly expanded by all the discussion on this topic here, and find it remarkable that we can have such a thoughtful discussion around such a charged issue--truly the flavor of the Dharma. The Dharma here seems to include killing and which species we should or shouldn't kill for food or in the process of growing food; how we treat what we eat; the considerations of our own health and diet with and without meat; climate change and industrial farming and land destruction for crop growing; who has the choice to eat what, based on economics and circumstance; and government influence over our food choices. Pretty impressive. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH shortly!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joyo]

The chapter we are reading in the book club discusses what is meant by taking refuge in Sangha, and this thread is a good example... like chopping vegetables and putting them in a pot to make soup so that the flavors harmonize, we are individuals who harmonize with each other to form a community with the taste of the Dharma. I find my own viewpoint significantly expanded by all the discussion on this topic here, and find it remarkable that we can have such a thoughtful discussion around such a charged issue--truly the flavor of the Dharma. The Dharma here seems to include killing and which species we should or shouldn't kill for food or in the process of growing food; how we treat what we eat; the considerations of our own health and diet with and without meat; climate change and industrial farming and land destruction for crop growing; who has the choice to eat what, based on economics and circumstance; and government influence over our food choices. Pretty impressive. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH shortly!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jakuden, although I have strong views about eating meat, my family eats meat every day. Also, I would sit down to a meal with you, my good friend Doshin, or anyone else here and would not judge any you for eating meat and having an ice cream cone. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jakuden]

Jakuden, although I have strong views about eating meat, my family eats meat every day. Also, I would sit down to a meal with you, my good friend Doshin, or anyone else here and would not judge any you for eating meat and having an ice cream cone. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Ooh let's do ice cream! Plenty of dairy-free alternatives these days! [emoji509]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Thank you Jika, nicely said. =)

But all said and done, regardless of what option we choose, we should have grace, respect, and gratitude for what we consume and for the choices we each make.

Each of us is unique in our ways and that is what makes it so beautiful. Our jobs is not to judge or divide, but understand and respect. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jakuden]

P.S. In case anyone came to a different conclusion, I am personally strongly neutral on the whole subject. I can't see it as black and white no matter how hard I try. I tend toward eating vegetarian when I feel I have a choice, and at my workplace we are mostly vegan or vegetarian. So for me it has not been so emotionally charged, I took an oath to promote the "human-animal bond" in whatever form it manifests itself.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FaithMoon]

I had some pretty extreme eating practices in my earlier life. Since then I managed to find the middle way in regards to eating and my relationship to food. I finally settled on something similar to Michael Pollan's advice: "eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

In gassho,
Faith-Moon
st