The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Jishin]

Hi Lucy,

Food for thought:

See post # 23 above.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Eishuu]

Thanks Jishin. Yes, I saw that. Very interesting.

Gassho
Lucy
ST

[Meian]

Food for thought:

See post # 23 above.

Thank you - I just bookmarked that article and also emailed it to my family. I have both vegans and serious meat-eaters in my family, we have frequent discussions on this topic.

Yesterday we had a huge family gathering (graduation celebration) with all foods available for our vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores. Several of my relatives who never had vegan food or did not know what it was, were able to try it for the first time. In fact, the vegan food went faster than burgers, etc (I just realized that). I just mentioned that to my husband (future reference), what got devoured and what still remains.

Excellent and sobering article - clear science that is eye-opening. Thank you for 'bumping' it, Jishin.

Gassho,
Kim

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[Risho]

Excellent! now we are talking science. this is a lengthy but very interesting podcast with gary taubes about diet. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...385172153&mt=2

gassho

risho
-sattoday

[Jika]

https://nutritionfacts.org/videos/

And some more.
I can't say he is not biased - seems so, because a physician doing reviews and finding a plant based diet is always better?

But you can read the publications he cites yourself to check, so maybe someone is interested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

PS: This is not to devalidate your very own experience, Kim. Statistics are one thing, a single person is another.

[Jakudo]

I believe it boils down to choice. If I have the choice not to participate in the killing of animals, it is what I choose to do. I've been vegetarian for about 15 years but recently started to eat fish again because of being extremely low in B12. It seems I don't store B12 like others do. So I tried giving myself injections for about a year but could not keep my levels high enough.


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[Kaishin]

Excellent! now we are talking science. this is a lengthy but very interesting podcast with gary taubes about diet. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...385172153&mt=2

gassho

risho
-sattoday

Interesting, I was at my absolute fattest when I was a vegan (for about three years, and vegetarian for another two). I've been slimmest while maintaining a high fat, low starch diet (mostly dairy, meat, eggs). On my latest physical my numbers looked better than they ever had.

I don't have a problem eating meat anymore. Humans seem to value larger animals more than small ones. We will weep over the slaughter of a cow (a massive animal whose single death can feed a family for months) but think nothing of the countless bajillions of voles, birds, and other small animals killed harvesting/poisoning veggies. A rabbit suffers just like a mammal 1000 times its size (trust me, I've heard their screams when my dog gets ahold of them...).

Buy freerange if you can afford it--factory farming is unquestionably awful for the animals. But eating animals is not evil.

-satToday (and had cream in my coffee and chicken for lunch)

[Joyo]

I eat meat. I hunt to put meat on the table and try to obtain meat from animals that were treated well during their lives. I see that as my evolutionary heritage. As I discussed a year or so ago on a similar Jukai thread, I worked for 35 years trying to reduce the numbers of animals (wildlife...insects to eagles, lizards to bears) destroyed by agriculture. And also to restore previous croplands to once again support wildlife. As mentioned above by Jundo and Joyo, annual farming practices result in animal deaths. However the major impact (destruction of life) is creating cropland. Before the land was cropland it was a forest, wetland, prairie or some other ecosystem that supported billions of living things that were destroyed when the land was converted. In fact I do not eat anything made from soybeans (unless it is offered to me) because of my memories of the destruction of so much bottomland hardwood forests and the diverse wildlife that once lived there. Nor do I believe others are wrong for doing so...i just have experiences that affect my choices. When I see the word organic I do not feel joy because I know as the demand grows ecosystems with their animals are being destroyed to meet the criteria to label the product as organic.

These are "my" feelings based on my biocentric view of the world that my brain attached itself too when i was very young. My life has always been surrounded by animals both wild and domestic. And yet that perspective does not prevent me from taking a deer anymore than the mountain lion that hunts the same area as I. I see humans as art of the ecosystem not separate from it which determined my life''s path and profession. To me the choices others make regarding What to eat is basd on their own paradignms and I respect them There are many paths, we each choose ours.

With this said i also embrace the precept "Do no kill". I do not take any life needlessly. I move all insects outside my house. I move rattlesnakes and other animals off the road before others kill them purposely or not.

Death gives life. None of us are free from that.

Gassho

Doshin
Sattoday/LAH

I always appreciate your perspective on this topic, Doshin. You clearly have a love for the land and all the animals in it.

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Kenshou]

I have enjoyed reading the many and varied responses in this thread. Many valid view points, as all view points are valid.
I personally am "vegetarian" so far as I won't cook or buy meat, although if my wife buys steak and cooks it for dinner I will not refuse the meal she has taken the time and effort to lovingly prepare.
Having said that we generally do not buy vegetables from the supermarket either. We are lucky enough to live in a house with a mid-sized yard and grow most of varieties we need, and have a stand out the front so others can take free veg also. Even this though is not completely free from killing, although the strongest pesticides we use are vinegar and chilli, it still kills the ants we spray.
Not to mention the countless insects, spiders and more than must get killed in simply the turning of the soil.

Gassho
Patrick

Sat today

[Ryudo]

So many comments.
So many wise words...
Yet, please allow me to add:
I am vegan and I am in perfect health.
No creature deserves to die just becouse someone enjoys the taste of their meat.
Our human capacities do not give us unlimited rights.
Is the choice really ours to make?

Ask yourself sincerely: "Are my arguments not just excuses?"

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday / LAH

[Jakuden]

I was on a low fat, almost vegan (ate some fish) diet in my 20's; extremely athletic, but had bad lipid numbers every year. High bad cholesterol, low good cholesterol, etc. Figured it was genetic. After a change in my 30's to include some meat and animal products in my diet, my lipids normalized, for 20 years now. Even though I am overweight and out of shape.🤷*♀️

As a veterinarian, I wonder what would happen to many of the domestic species I learned to care for if humanity completely stopped needing animal products. Is it ok if they all just die out? Or should they be pets or free range like cows and dogs on other countries, suffering disease and injury?
No excuses--just a topic that is grey rather than black and white, like most others.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

As a vete


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[Eishuu]

Hi Kaishin, I'm on a low starch, high fat diet too and I love it!

Gassho
Lucy
sat today/LAH

[Risho]

Memphis meats is doing some interesting stuff. They are creating meat - sort of Star Trek-ish in a way, but very cool.

I may have heard this joke here (I definitely cannot take credit for it)- how do you know someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They F#%$@#*^ tell you!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Joyo]

[URL=

I may have heard this joke here (I definitely cannot take credit for it)- how do you know someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They F#%$@#*^ tell you!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

And if they don't tell you, how would you know?

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Mp]

And if they don't tell you, how would you know?

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

Exactly! Also Riso, your statement seems quite judgemental...as Joyo stated, how would you know?

Right action is not just in what we do, but what we say.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH