Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition Begins Week of 11 April 2021

[Zenkon]

Nengei - I'll echo Onkai's comments. Thanks for facilitating this discussion. It is appreciated.

Gassho

Dick

Sat/lah

[Nengei]

Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition WEEK 6, 23 May - 29 May


Dear Sangha, what fantastic responses folks had to Chapter 5, Realization Beyond Realization! I am please to see you participating, and if you are just joining us, welcome!

We had one extra week built in to allow anyone who needed to catch up to do so. And now we will move on to Chapter 6: Dropping Off Body and Mind. This will take us through 92 in the paperback; all of chapter 6 for you electronic readers.

Once you have read and considered this week's portion, please come back to this thread and comment. Below are some ideas for questions to think about as your read, and perhaps to stimulate the conversation and posts. Remember that these are questions that I pulled from my reading, not in any way meant as an assignment. There are no right or wrong answers, an it is fine to not answer or to come up with your own questions.

Questions for Chapter 6: Dropping Off Body and Mind:

1. What is the self? Is there a self? Has your concept of self changed through these readings and Dharma practice in general?

2. What does opening the hand of thought mean to you? Can you relate opening the hand of thought to becoming familiar with the self?

3. What was Dōgen saying when he wrote of dropping off body and mind? What is meant by be verified by all things?

Okay, those are heavy duty questions.


I look forward to your thoughts about Realization Beyond Realization. Next week, we will continue with the following chapter, through page 107 in the paperback, which is Chapter 7, When We Seek We are Far Away.


Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Onkai]

Thank you to everyone on this thread. There's a lot to reflect on. My sense of self has softened since starting my practice. I find different responses to situations and different results. Who I am was not defined ahead of time. I can see intellectually that in a sense there is no self at all, yet my deepest feeling is that there is an individual, or at least an individuality experiencing the relative world. I guess that is where opening the hand of thought comes in. That to me is setting aside, for a time, my goals, wishes, and emotions, letting them arise but then watching them give way to the next thing or mix differently with different parts of my understanding. My experiences of dropping off body and mind are when I forget myself in what I am doing, and what I'm doing becomes the whole universe to me. That may be a misunderstanding, because it isn't so much related to zazen. Lately I have been restless in zazen making me self-conscious.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Zenkon]

1. What is the self? Is there a self? Has your concept of self changed through these readings and Dharma practice in general?

A person experiences the world thru their 6 senses ( 5 conventional form senses plus thought). For example, when the eye first perceives an image of a tree, the information is transmitted to the brain. That information is compared with past experiences, “stories” of similar phenomena, and an “object” is created, with the brain as the “subject”. The entire world, the universe is experienced in relation to this brain, this “subject”. This brain, this “subject” is our created “self”. This self is our own creation and is constantly changing as it receives and processes new experiences.
We delude ourselves into believing that: 1. this “self” is independently real, 2. this self is a separate subject and that everything else in the universe is an object and 3. that everything that happens is only important in as far as it affects the self.
Emptiness teaches us that there is no permanent self, and that everything is subject to dependent origination. Chap. 6 takes this one step further and seems to propose that while a self of some kind does exist, it only exists in conjunction with the object being perceived and the action of perception. Chap. 6 approaches the question of the self with “…there is no such thing as a self that is separate from our activity…” (italics mine). This refutes the subject-object duality and posits that the subject (self), object and action are linked and working together in one reality. To understand the self, you really need to look at everything.
I used not think that the self existed, but just not in a permanent, unchanging manner. I can now see that this thinking perpetuated a dualistic, “me vs them” way of thinking. It prevented me from seeing the true connected-ness of everything. In zazen we drop all thoughts of self, drop all judgements, evaluations, opinions and just accept everything as it is. I can see that this is not just a “tolerance” for different things, but rather a true acceptance that everything is just as it should be – nothing needs to be changed.

2. What does opening the hand of thought mean to you? Can you relate opening the hand of thought to becoming familiar with the self?

“Opening the hand of thought” is mentioned only briefly in Chap. 6 and is never explicitly defined. To me, it seems to suggest a broader view of the self beyond just the individual and to include other beings and the environment. Perhaps, this is what we do in zazen – drop our restrictions of me, mine, you, yours, good, bad, and just accept the connectedness of everything.

3. What was Dōgen saying when he wrote of dropping off body and mind? What is meant by be verified by all things?

“Dropping off body and mind” is zazen, in which we drop the 5 desires and the 5 coverings, just sitting with acceptance. We discard the “clothing”, the costume that we wear and see our real selvers. To be verified by all things is to realize the reality of interdependent origination, to drop the separation between self and others.

Chap. 6 has been extremely powerful and “meaty”, with a lot of information to think on. I can tell this is a chapter I will need to re-read a number of time to fully appreciate.

Gassho
Dick
Sat/lah

[Kaisui]

Another thank you to Nengei for facilitating.

I found the prompting questions this week very helpful. I had already read the chapter and when I went back to it with these questions I found a lot more. I agree with Dick that this chapter reveals more on re-reading.

1. What is the self? Is there a self? Has your concept of self changed through these readings and Dharma practice in general?

Okumura, explaining Dōgen, says the self cannot be separated from activity: jijuyu-zanmai (Dōgen), “self ‘selfing’ the self” (Sawaki Kōdō Rōshi), or “no runner is separate from the act of running” (Okumura).

I like this, but I will need some time to absorb it to become my own concept of self.

But then, it is possibly not my own ‘concept’ of self that I should expect to adjust. If the Buddha Way is beyond conceptualisation then I’m not going to ‘get it’ in the way I expect to (as a concept). This is something I have started noticing through zazen practice.

Okumura writes, “Yet when we think or speak, we use concepts and we must therefore say, ‘I study the self,’ or ‘I study the Buddha Way.’ So the important point is that we should just study and just practice.” – i.e. just do it, don’t get stuck on conceptualising or trying to fully understand before doing. Later Okumura writes, “Even when we don’t realize it, self, action, and object are working together as one reality, so we don’t need to train ourselves to make them into one thing in our minds.”

2. What does opening the hand of thought mean to you? Can you relate opening the hand of thought to becoming familiar with the self?

When Okumura breaks down the words ‘study the self’ he says it is like a bird learning to fly from its parents, something already innate but that still needs to be learned by example. So from this point of view studying / becoming familiar with the self is practicing being something we already are, which we do by dropping all our concepts (opening the hand of thought).

3. What was Dōgen saying when he wrote of dropping off body and mind? What is meant by be verified by all things?

Dōgen took this concept from his teacher, Rujing. I found this passage of Dōgen recalling Rujing especially helpful in showing me that dropping off body and mind is linked to compassion. Combining this with the comment that dropping off body and mind is dropping the 5 desires and 5 coverings, then it is about dropping off the selfish concepts of body and mind as separate with selfish desires. As Okumura said, it is letting go of roles and self-images and the separation between self and others.

In Hōkyōki , Dōgen recorded one more conversation with his teacher concerning dropping off body and mind:
Rujing said, “The zazen of arhats[11] and pratyekabuddhas[12] is free of attachment yet it lacks great compassion. Their zazen is therefore different from the zazen of the buddhas and ancestors; the zazen of buddhas and ancestors places primary importance on great compassion and the vow to save all living beings. Non-Buddhist practitioners in India also practice zazen, yet they have the three sicknesses, namely attachment, mistaken views, and arrogance. Therefore, their zazen is different from the zazen of the buddhas and ancestors. Sravakas[13] also practice zazen, and yet their compassion is weak because they don’t penetrate the true reality of all beings with wisdom. They practice only to improve themselves and in so doing cut off the seeds of Buddha. Therefore, their zazen is also different from the zazen of the buddhas and ancestors. In buddhas’ and ancestors’ zazen, they wish to gather all Buddha Dharma from the time they first arouse bodhi-mind. Buddhas and ancestors do not forget or abandon living beings in their zazen; they offer a heart of compassion even to an insect. Buddhas and ancestors vow to save all living beings and dedicate all the merit of their practice to all living beings. They therefore practice zazen within the world of desire,[14] yet even within the world of desire they have the best connection with this Jambudvipa.[15] Buddhas and ancestors practice many virtues generation after generation and allow their minds to be flexible.” (pp. 58-60 in Google Play version)

Charity
SatLaH

[Nengei]

Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition WEEK 7, 30 May - 5 June


Dear Sangha, it is wonderful to have folks reading along and thinking about Genjōkōan so deeply.

This week we will move on to Chapter 7: When We Seek We Are Far Away. This will take us through page 107 in the paperback; all of chapter 7 if you are using the ebook. I love this chapter! When I read it, I feel as though it is expressing the weavings of understanding that come from experience with shikantaza. Maybe you will see something different.

Once you have read and considered this week's portion, please come back to this thread and comment. Below are some ideas for questions to think about as your read, and perhaps to stimulate the conversation and posts. These are questions that came to me while reading the chapter; perhaps other ideas will come to you and you will share them with us. Even if you don't comment about the text, it would be nice to simply post that you are reading along.

Questions for Chapter 7:When We Seek We Are Far Away:

1. Okumura starts this chapter by reviewing three perspectives of reality from the first three sections of Genjōkōan. What are some reasons Dōgen might have chosen to teach in this fashion? What is the importance of "the concrete life experience of practice?"

2. Is enlightenment dependent on recognizing delusion (On the philosophical level of: Are we born having sinned? Do the ultimate rewards of faith come from faith alone, or are good works required?)?

3. Why do you do zazen?

4. Does the bell make the sound, or does the wind make the sound?

I look forward to your thoughts about When We Seek We Are Far Away. Next week, we will continue with the following chapter, through page 126 in the paperback, which is Chapter 7, Past and Future Are Cut Off.


Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Onkai]

After reading this chapter, I feel I can't say anything about it directly; I can only sit with it. Yet the chapter is satisfying, full of paradox that conveys something different every time I read it or ponder it.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Seikan]

Onkai's above note about this chapter actually sums up my whole experience with the book so far. Each chapter has provided me with one or more unexpected "aha" moments that I continue to sit with. Why did I wait so long to read this book?

For example, in the last Chapter (6), there was one sentence that just hit me the right way:
"This just sitting in zazen is itself the practice of nirvana."

Have I been taught this before? Certainly, albeit in different words/contexts. However, this particular wording was like a bolt of lightning in the middle of the night. I simply had to stop reading and just sit for a moment before finishing that chapter.

So again, my apologies for not contributing much to the discussion so far. I have been following along and enjoying both the reading and the dialogue here. As I finish the current chapter (7), I'll see if I can't muster up something more worthwhile to share.

Gassho,
Seikan

-stlah-

[Zenkon]

1. Okumura starts this chapter by reviewing three perspectives of reality from the first three sections of Genjōkōan. What are some reasons Dōgen might have chosen to teach in this fashion?

Dogen’s method follows the way many people come to understand reality, the progression most people take. First, he explains how, as non-Buddhists, we value life and living, and how we greedily pursue accumulating material things in a mistaken belief that it will make us happy. Them, he explains how, as “new” Buddhists, we learn that this greed, this attachment is a major source of our dissatisfaction, our suffering. He explains how dualistic thinking (i.e. “Me” vs everything else} remains a source of our suffering even as we learn that generosity and compassion can reduce our suffering. He then explains how, even when we zazen, if we do so in an attempt to “attain” something, to “get” something, we remain deluded. The next stage for many people is to stop striving, stop “wanting” and just accept things as they are. However, Dogen explains how most people still think of themselves as separate from everything else, viewing things from outside. The next stage is to lose the separateness, but to see everything as one, as connected, how we don’t live “with the world” but “in the world”. . Dogen explains how even this stage is not true reality. Finally, Dogen explains how seeing both separate and together, different yet unified is the true reality.

What is the importance of "the concrete life experience of practice?"

Here Dogen is talking about life and death, not as separate, independent phenomena, but rather as inter-dependent. Rather than thinking of death as the “end” 0of something, we are encouraged to see life and death as simply a continuation of then “dance”.

2. Is enlightenment dependent on recognizing delusion

Per Dogen “…delusion and enlightenment exist only in relationship between the self and all … beings…” When we act with striving, grasping, wanting, we act with delusion. Enlightenment comes when we stop grasping, stop wanting, even if that “wanting” is to “want” enlightenment. We need to recognize our deluded state, our delusion before we can escape it and reach enlightenment.

On the philosophical level of: Are we born having sinned?

How could I possibly be born having sinned? “When” was I supposed to have sinned? In a past life? When “I” was born, the only thing carried over from any past life might be a karma-disposed habitual tendency of how to act. Plus, all that exists is the present. The past, whatever it entails, is gone.

Do the ultimate rewards of faith come from faith alone, or are good works required?)?

Our primary sources of suffering are greed/attachment, anger and ignorance. Overcoming these involve generosity, compassion and wisdom realizing emptiness. Generosity and compassion generally involve good works. So, yes, ultimate “rewards” do require good works.

3. Why do you do zazen?

Initially, I did zazen because I wanted to “achieve” something, to “attain” something. Dogen explains how this simply replaces one attachment for another, how I remained “greedy” for something. I do zazen now to “stop thinking”, find that space between thoughts, and see how not only am I connected to everything but that I am part of everything – not to simply observe the world as a separate observer, but to see it from the inside, as a integral, inter-dependent part of everything.

4. Does the bell make the sound, or does the wind make the sound?

Neither. The sound does not exist independently, but rather is dependent on everything else. The sound is a result of causes and conditions – the bell, the wind, space, time, a “hearer”. Put the bell in a box, blocking the wind – no sound. Wrap the bell in a blanket – no sound. Put the bell in New York and the wind in London – no sound.

Gassho

Dick

Sat/lah

[Kaisui]

I agree with Onkai and Seikan, this chapter gives a sense of needing to sit with the ideas. This is especially reinforced when Okumura discusses how he understands these concepts through practice.

1. Okumura starts this chapter by reviewing three perspectives of reality from the first three sections of Genjōkōan. What are some reasons Dōgen might have chosen to teach in this fashion? What is the importance of "the concrete life experience of practice?"
I like Dick’s answer on this

Dogen’s method follows the way many people come to understand reality, the progression most people take. … However, Dogen explains how most people still think of themselves as separate from everything else, viewing things from outside. The next stage is to lose the separateness, but to see everything as one, as connected, how we don’t live “with the world” but “in the world”. . Dogen explains how even this stage is not true reality. Finally, Dogen explains how seeing both separate and together, different yet unified is the true reality.

3. Why do you do zazen?
I do zazen because I remember a time I was better for having done it, so I believe it is worthwhile and works toward the values of Buddhism. Without this memory and belief, I suppose I wouldn’t do it. So I must always have some goal or intention before I sit zazen. Okumura talks about how we always start with an intention, then realise this is getting in the way of our practice and we have to drop it and just sit.

I think this is again like what Dick said above, these are two perspectives of one reality: I have intention and I drop intention. I cannot lose this intention completely or I would never sit zazen, but I have to drop it at the same time.

4. Does the bell make the sound, or does the wind make the sound?
The bell and the wind act together. Another version of the boat and the shore.

I was struggling to see the relationship between these passages about things acting as one and the chapter topic of seeking and being far away. I found this line from Okumura helpful: “it usually seems that things around us are changing and moving while we stay the same, and we try to find the underlying principle of this change so that we can control things” – by seeking we are trying to control things, but our sense of being a fixed person who controls a changing world is a delusion.

If you asked me if I believed that I am fixed while the world changed, I would have said no, but when I read that line by Okumura, I realised that I do feel that in some way when I try to change things.

I’m not quite sure what to do with this yet. I guess I will just sit…


Charity
sat

[Zenkon]

I really liked Charity's comment "...by seeking we are trying to control things, but our sense of being a fixed person who controls a changing world is a delusion..." You are right - I often see myself as a fixed being in a changing universe, as the fixed point around which everything changing revolves. This reminds me how delusional this is. Thanks

Gassho

Dick

Sat/lah

[Inshin]

What is the importance of "the concrete life experience of practice?"

It's crucial, isn't it? The embodiment of Buddha's teachings. He showed us the path, and we only can use his teachings as signposts. The true practice is us embodying the Dharma, through our bodies.

Is enlightenment dependent on recognizing delusion (On the philosophical level of: Are we born having sinned? Do the ultimate rewards of faith come from faith alone, or are good works required?)?

I think that enlightenment is dependent on realising our true nature, and that delusion exists within this true nature - they are not separate. We are born with true nature and delusion, I don't believe in original sin.
Faith is not enough, we need to cultivate compassion and good deeds are required to dissolve chains of self absorption.

Why do you do Zazen?

After sitting every day for nearly a year I have actually stopped doing zazen for about 2 weeks (with occasional sitting here and there as opposed to aiming for 2 hrs per day) to see what happens, to check if I haven't become a bit to preoccupied with the practice, attached somehow and to re-evaluate my motivation.
I can't put it into words but in that period it felt sometimes like if Zazen was seeking Zazen during my daily activities. I would sometimes naturally fall into this accepting, observing spaciousness. I'm back to my regular routine now, I've missed it. I thought I knew why I did Zazen before, now I'm not sure anymore. It just feels right, even if the stuff arising during Zazen is "not right".

Does the bell make the sound, or does the wind make the sound?

"Ding-dong-a-ling ding-dong"
"Does the sound exist even if no one hears it?"


Gassho
Sat

[Tairin]

Onkai and Seikan nailed it. I find it hard to comment on the readings because there are many “ah ha” moments that I just can’t even begin to express in better words than those Okumura used. Plenty to sit with.

Why do I sit Zazen? No question that initially it was to gain something. Enlightenment? Peace? Calm? Yes and more. Now? Well honestly I am not so sure anymore why I sit. It has become a habitual part of my day. Having said that it is also a (usually) enjoyable part of my day that I look forward to.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Side note: I like the pace we are reading the book at. Not too fast and not too slow.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Nengei]

Great discussion happening here, folks! You are going to get a couple of extra days before the next chapter post as I am working ten days in a row, long shifts. I'm off on Tuesday so should have your next set of discussion questions sometime on that day.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Onkai]

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat