Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition Begins Week of 11 April 2021

[Jundo]

Oops, sorry, of course. I tried to take my last post down but for some reason it won't let me. People can ignore it.

Oh, we are not starting Ango until September 3rd. No need to stop early.

Gassho, Jundo

STLaf

[Zenkon]

I finished my Chap. 9 comments offline before I saw the suggestion to pause during Ango. I, too, am doing Ango and Jukai for the first time, and agree a pause makes sense. With that, my comments:

1. Support or refute the idea that emptiness is "not really there," or "is the same as." Is the moon in water the same as the moon?

Emptiness is a characteristic of all conditioned phenomena (all beings, objects, thoughts, feelings, etc.), but is most easily seen in tangible “stuff”, and states that all such phenomena re “empty” of any independent, inherent essence. Rather, all phenomena are dependent on other phenomena. The object in my garage, “my car” certainly is “really there”, it exists, but just not as an independent entity. Rather, it exists as a combination of steel, plastic, rubber, glass, workman’s skill, time and space. It is not “the same as” the car in my neighbor’s garage, but it has not inherent identity. Realizing this, it is easier to avoid attachment to the car, to getting greedy that it is “mine”, and to see all things in this way and to avoid jealousy over someone else’s car.
The ”moon in water”, the reflection of the moon, is not the same as the moon itself. Just as my mind’s perception of ANYTHING is not the same as the thing itself. Knowing this, I can realize that my mind colors perceptions based on my past experiences.


2. Beyond the obvious, what does it mean to be "... a Zen master, not a philosopher?"
A philosopher may intellectually understand the concepts, but a Master has integrated the concepts into his being.

3. Discuss the meaning of mind as "the reality of our lives."
How do we experience reality? Our senses send raw perceptions to our mind. Our mind compares these perceptions with past experiences, our “stories” of the world, and our mind then creates a reality. In this way, our mind creates our own reality.

Gassho

Dick

Sat/lah

[Kaisui]

Hi all,

Thank you again Nengei for your thoughtful questions.

1. Support or refute the idea that emptiness is "not really there," or "is the same as." Is the moon in water the same as the moon?

I reviewed my notes from this chapter and I’ve had trouble forming an answer to this based on my reading. Okumura discusses lot of word play by Dogen, with words like moon conveying multiple things at once, as well as recalling known Buddhist symbols and teachings (e.g., Vimalakirti Sutra: “all things are like.. magical illusions.. like a reflection of the moon in the water.. born of mental construction.”)

If I try to answer based on my feelings after both reading and sitting over time, I will say… the moon in the water represents how our conceptual thought distorts and does not fully represent the wholeness of reality, but at the same time these thoughts thinking and the reflection reflecting are the workings/functioning of the whole as much anything else. Emptiness is maybe the wholeness/totality, appearing as nothing by being everything, like how light has no colour when all the colours come together?

I also like Dick's answer about emptiness, as it makes me think of it as shorthand for 'empty of independent existence.' And Tairin's answer, too, as emptiness as a word does seem to miss the mark without adding a lot of extra oomph to it.

Not sure if this is part of my answer to this question, but I liked this bit from Okumura, “seeing reality from both sides [absolute and relative truth], without clinging to either, is the middle path.” Referring to Dogen: “Without relying on everyday common practices [i.e., relative truths], the absolute truth cannot be expressed.” – I think this is something I grapple with understanding.

2. Beyond the obvious, what does it mean to be "... a Zen master, not a philosopher?"

Allowing Buddha to express Buddha through you instead of trying to problem solve to find Buddha. Not sure what counted as 'the obvious' to go beyond it, though

Gassho,
Charity
sat/lah

[Nengei]

Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition WEEK 9, 25 August - 29 August

Hello Sangha,

We have but three chapters remaining in this text. See below for how you can approach this pre-/post-Ango.

The more I learn, the less I know. I am limited by my ability to perceive. I know that there is more that I am unable to comprehend.

This week we will move on to Chapter 10: Something is Still Lacking, pages 143-155 in the paperback or all of chapter 10 in the ebook.

Once you have read and considered this week's portion, please come back to this thread and comment. Below are some ideas for questions to think about as you read, and perhaps to stimulate the conversation and posts. These are questions that came to me while reading the chapter; perhaps other ideas will come to you and you will share them with us. Even if you don't comment about the text, it would be nice to simply post that you are reading along.

Questions for Chapter 10:Something is Still Lacking:

1. What can I learn or change with the knowledge that my existence is original?

2. Does seeing something in a way that is different from the way other beings see it change the nature of that thing (pay attention to the excerpt from Shōbōgenzō Sansuikyo and commentary)?

3. Does knowing or being aware of inexhaustible characteristics or views influence my bodhisattva obligations?

I look forward to your thoughts about Something is Still Lacking Next week, we will continue with the following TWO chapters, through page 201 in the paperback, which are Chapters 11 and 10, A Fish Swims, A Bird Flies; and We Wave a Fan Because Wind Nature is Everywhere. This will be the end of Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo (all that remain are appendices). I will make two separate posts in a few days to bring this book to a close. Feel at liberty to conclude your reading then, or to postpone the last chapter or both of these chapters until after Ango concludes, as you prefer.


Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Onkai]

1. Support or refute the idea that emptiness is "not really there," or "is the same as." Is the moon in water the same as the moon?

I think we're all reflections I Indra's Net. To understand, as Dogen said in Bendowa, is to let go of the separation of self and other. We do exist, but we can't pin down a separate existence. We are interdependent.

2. Beyond the obvious, what does it mean to be "... a Zen master, not a philosopher?"

Practice means seeing and experiencing immediately and concretely as a Zen master. A philosopher deals with abstract intellectual ideas.

3. Discuss the meaning of mind as "the reality of our lives."

I don't know if this is the big mind that includes everything or if this refers to our perception which is shaped by our inclinations. If we have habitual responses, they shape our reality. If we drop the separation of self and other, we have a bigger reality.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Inshin]

I really liked Okumara's approach to his Zazen practice, which he perceived as an offering of his body and mind to all buddhas. It's quite striking when we compare it with the modern attitude of getting something out of Zazen, treating it as relaxation method, anxiety relief, meditation technique, etc.

I also liked the following from Dogen:
"Realization does not destroy the person, as the moon does not make a hole in the water. The person does not obstruct realization, as a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky."

In some other Buddhsit and spiritual traditions I came across the "Great Death" of ego. Perhaps I misunderstood this, but I don't see a point in trying to destroy or fight our "small self". Both Nirvana and Samsara are empty, both our True Nature and the deluded "small nature" are empty. I guess we all came across teachings saying that the treasure we are looking for is not somewhere "out there" but inside us. I don't think it is entirely correct. When the borders soften, when the "inside" and "outside" are not so obvious anymore, all of it becomes a treasure.

Same as Charity I liked this bit from Okumura, “seeing reality from both sides [absolute and relative truth], without clinging to either, is the middle path.” Referring to Dogen: “Without relying on everyday common practices [i.e., relative truths], the absolute truth cannot be expressed.”.

The reality of our lives. The exact situation, place and moment we find ourselves in is the ground for practice. There's no other reality for us than what we are experiencing right now. An this right now is ever-changing, constant arrisal and disappearance of phenomena. To learn how not to stick, not to reject, not get attached but to flow with the wholeness is in my understanding, an Unattainable Way.

A Zen Master is someone who can embody this unattainable way to at least a certain degree.

Gassho
Sat

[Kaisui]

Here are my answers for this chapter. I think it may be a struggle to do another two chapters before Ango, but Nengei if you post the questions here we can get to them when we get to them. Thank you again!

1. What can I learn or change with the knowledge that my existence is original?

Okumura has previously explained being an original person is who we are when we sit zazen, dropping the self-story and letting go of thinking. In this chapter he explains further that “practice allows us to live as an original person in this moment rather than become an original person sometime in the future.”

Existence is original in this moment. What can I change knowing this? To drop my mental constructions of past and future, the focus on maintaining a narrative self. This frees me up to do Bodhisattva actions that serve others instead of actions based on fear of preserving my story, which only continues a cycle of suffering.

With Jundo’s recent Zazenkai talk still in mind, I will add that it means I will make mistake after mistake but the lesson is to not to battle myself to internally reconcile the mistake with my ongoing sense of self but rather to keep dancing and be the original existence doing good.

2. Does seeing something in a way that is different from the way other beings see it change the nature of that thing (pay attention to the excerpt from Shōbōgenzō Sansuikyo and commentary)?

A core message at the beginning of this chapter is that when the Dharma fully penetrates, we realise not only that we are all one but that our view is always limited, as we all see things in different ways.

This stood out to me -

Dōgen says that we cannot be certain that there is an objective “true reality of water” that exists outside of the relationship between beings that are viewing and the “water” that is being viewed.

If things don’t have an objective fixed nature but instead are relative to relationships, what is to change?

In another sense, another theme I have been picking up in this reading, is that things are change, or are always changing, always in motion and it is their action at the time that defines them – their function.

3. Does knowing or being aware of inexhaustible characteristics or views influence my bodhisattva obligations?

Yes. To save all sentient beings we need to consider their perspectives.

There are many different perspectives to take—different beings, relative and absolute, large and small scale—we will not be able to take them all, but we stay aware that our views are incomplete.

I think that's what Okumura is meaning here -

As Xuansha eventually said after becoming a master, seeing the ocean as one circle is perceiving that the entire ten-direction world is one bright jewel. Yet he also said that within this one bright jewel there are many different kinds of pain that create suffering for many people. Each pain has a different cause and needs its own cure; we must therefore study each pain individually.

Gassho,
Charity
sat/lah

[Nengei]

Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition WEEK 10, 31 August - 3 September and the start of Ango, Part A


Dear Sangha,

As we near our Ango season, we are also nearing the end of Realizing Genjokoan. This and the next post are my final ones on this text.

Chapter 11: A Fish Swims, a Bird Flies, pp. 157-179

This chapter, especially the last ten pages or so, is so personal and so enriching to me. I hope that you have found parts of this book that are meaningful for you.

Once you have read and reflected on this chapter, please make some comments to let us know that you were here. I have written some questions below that came to my mind as I read this chapter. I make no assertions of their value. You may ignore them, respond to them, give us your own questions, use or do not use them how you like. As always, this is not an assignment, and no one is checking homework.

Questions for Chapter 11: A Fish Swims, a Bird Flies:

1. Is zazen the same as water for the fish and sky for the bird? If a fish is swimming like a fish, and a bird is flying like a bird, what am I doing?

2. How does my involvement with the Sangha help my practice? How does the way that I interact with the Sangha affect my practice?

3. What is the nature of my place and my path?

I look forward to your thoughts about A Fish Swims, a Bird Flies.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Nengei]

Informal Reading Group: REALIZING GENJOKOAN 2021 Edition WEEK 10, 31 August - 3 September and the start of Ango, Part B


Dear Sangha,

We are approaching Ango. We are also at the end of Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo.

Chapter 12: We Wave a Fan Because Wind Nature is Everywhere, pp. 181-201

Once you have read and reflected on this chapter, please make some comments to let us know that you were here. I have written some questions below that came to my mind as I read this chapter. I make no assertions of their value. You may ignore them, respond to them, give us your own questions, use or do not use them how you like. As always, this is not an assignment, and no one is checking homework.

Questions for Chapter 12: We Wave a Fan Because Wind Nature is Everywh:

1. How would I be different as an enlightened being versus someone living in delusion? Okumura notes that Only when a person becomes an enlightened buddha is the true beauty of the diamond revealed--to whom?

2. How does my involvement with the Sangha help my practice? How does the way that I interact with the Sangha affect my practice?

3. Why practice?

I look forward to your thoughts about We Wave a Fan Because Wind Nature is Everywhere.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Onkai]

Thank you, Nengei and everyone, for this thoughtful thread. I'm still on Chapter 10.

Questions for Chapter 10:Something is Still Lacking:

1. What can I learn or change with the knowledge that my existence is original?

I can work with comes up for me just as it all is. It is acceptance without being self centered, self satisfied or even being aware of the self. Sitting, I can drop my stories and just breathe.

2. Does seeing something in a way that is different from the way other beings see it change the nature of that thing (pay attention to the excerpt from Shōbōgenzō Sansuikyo and commentary)?

I liked the idea that everything exists only in relationship to everything else, so my relationship with water may be that it soothes a parched throat, or is something to swim in, or that it cleanses, makes it those things. A fish in water makes it a palace

3. Does knowing or being aware of inexhaustible characteristics or views influence my bodhisattva obligations?

To be of service to anyone or anything, I have to be aware of that person’s or thing’s views and characteristics, as well as of the golden rule. The knowledge and awareness also creates reverence for all beings.

***

I loved Uchiyama Roshi’s last poem, “Just Bow,” as an expression of all he had wanted to teach.

Just Bow

Putting my right and left hands together as one, I just bow.
Just bow to become one with Buddha and God.
Just bow to become one with everything I encounter.
Just bow to become one with all the myriad things.
Just bow as life becomes life.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Zenkon]

My apologies. I thought we were suspending this group until after Jukai/Ango. Thank you to Nengei for the thought-provoking questions, and to the whole group for great comments.

Gassho

Dick

sat/lah

[Onkai]

My apologies. I thought we were suspending this group until after Jukai/Ango. Thank you to Nengei for the thought-provoking questions, and to the whole group for great comments.

Gassho

Dick

sat/lah

That may have been my misunderstanding. Ango begins tomorrow.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Jundo]

That may have been my misunderstanding. Ango begins tomorrow.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Hi Guys,

Yes, if it is okay, we are going to pause discussions here during Ango and Jukai, as so much to read and reflect on during that time. Resume with the new year?

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Nengei]

Yes, as I explained in my posts, I have completed my discussion posts for the final chapters, but it is fine to leave them until after Ango. I'll move on now.

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

We had some folks come to us interested in getting together for an informal reading group regarding Uchiyama Roshi's "Instructions for the Cook." Because we do not want too much going on in the forum, I suggested that they could get together off the forum, among themselves by email or PM etc., for their discussions (it is a really small group).

Maybe you guys could do the same, if you want to go ahead among yourselves? Or you can wait until after Ango and Jukai.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah