Chanting & Zazen Circle (Mo thru Sa)

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40379

    Originally posted by Aleksey

    And a question to sangha. Do we use in practices Daihi Shin Darani and Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani? If not - why?



    Gassho
    Thank you, Aleksey. According to my understanding of Russian (and Google Translator), this is lovely ...

    Достичь Пути Просветления, хотя Путь недостижим = Reach the Path of Enlightenment, although the Path is unattainable

    As to Dharani, this is due to my belief that they were traditionally used as magic spells based on the power of sounds the origin and meaning of which are long long forgotten, much like the words "abracadabra." D.T. Suzuki wrote this about them ...

    Properly speaking, the dharani has no legitimate place in Zen. That it has nevertheless crept into its daily service is clue to the general characteristics of Chinese Buddhism of the Sung dynasty, when the Japanese Zen masters visited China and imported it as they found it then, together with the [esoteric Buddhist] elements of Chinese Zen. ... A dharani is considered as holding magical power in it or bearing deep meaning. When it is pronounced, whatever evil spirits there are ready to interfere with the spiritual effect of a ritual, are kept away from it. ... When translated they convey no intelligent signification. They mostly consist of invocations and exclamations. The invocation is an appeal to the higher powers, and the exclamation is to frighten away the evil spirits. That the practical result of these utterances is not to be judged objectively goes without saying.
    That being said, if doing so holds some meaning or "power" for you in your heart, then they have meaning and power to that extent. If they have meaning for you, then they have that meaning. We humans all find our meaning and power where we will, and so the Dharani may have meaning and power for you to chant.

    However, we do not chant them in our ceremonies here at Treeleaf.

    I cut and paste below more of an old rant by me on Dharani, in case anyone is interested.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday

    Sorry to run long.

    =======================================

    Dharani are chants, sometimes intelligible but often unintelligible as the original Indian meanings have been lost (for example, they are chanted phonetically in Japanese vaguely based on purely phonetic Chinese, itself based on some original long lost Indian words ... something that makes even less sense if one believes that the power is only in the original Indian sounds as is the original belief!! ), often felt to have protective, good fortune bringing or other special powers thought to derive from the power of the sound (more than the lost meaning). Mantra are similar, but typically shorter. Dharani are recited as part of standard Soto rituals, and in most other schools of Buddhism.

    I do not recite Dharani here at Treeleaf, for I tend to consider them too much "hocus pocus and abracadarba". I will not chant magic spells, but I do feel at home to chant certain Mantra, such as at the end of the Heart Sutra ...

    Gate! Gate! (Already Gone, Gone)
    Paragate! (Already Gone Beyond)
    Parasamgate! (Already Fully Beyond)
    Bodhi! Svaha! * (Awakening, Rejoice)


    Let me try to explain the difference:

    Much depends how one defines a Mantra or Dharani in one's heart. In much of Buddhism and related religions of India (although something very similar can be found in about all religions really ... e.g., like "God Is Great/Allahu al-Akbar" in Islam, an orthodox Jew's reciting the sacred letters of Torah, or "Praise Jesus" in some corners of Christianity), it is a sound, word or words that create transformation in some way. Mantras and Dharani ... like classical music ... can have a profound meaning often beyond words that is spoken to the heart. That is fine. All sounds arise from and return to Silence! The bare sounds truly can resonate with the heart and outward into space. If you have no problem, and it makes your heart feel good, to walk down the street on a summer day, singing the Beatle's unintelligible "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da", then why not the Dharani's equally unintelligible "gya gya gya ki gya ki" if it rings in your heart?

    My real objection is to those Dharani and Mantras used quite clearly as abracadabra magic spells and incantations to get some material benefit such as a new job or new car or love or even medical recovery. I believe that, for most people, that is the way they have been primarily thought of and used through the centuries. Often the ways in which we chant "to get stuff" can be much more hidden and subtle, and we should be cautious. The "Disaster Prevention Dharani" was traditionally used as a magic spell to prevent fires and other like disasters in the monastery and life by its alleged mystical power to appease the spirits (I would advise that it is probably better instead to just buy a smoke alarm and do a fire drill).

    We usually chant the Heart Sutra and other Chants at Treeleaf in English as the common language we share in this international Sangha. We also chant in Japanese (to be exact, "Sino-Japanese", the Japanese pronunciation of classical Chinese) from time to time out of respect for tradition and honoring our "roots" (Sometimes, but more rarely, we chant something in Sanskrit). I feel that it is important to understand the philosophy and perspectives presented in the words of the Heart Sutra, the Identity of Relative and Absolute and all of the other chants we chant. (I even translated the little Mantra that closes the Heart Sutra into understandable English in our Chant Book).

    However, there is also a point where we "Just Chant" (like "Just Sit") ... throwing one-self into the chanting. In such case, it does not matter if we chant in English, Japanese, Esperanto, Martian or Silently. Got the point?

    On the other hand, I do not encourage around here the Chanting of "Dharani", even several traditional to the Soto school and Zen in general. It is just too much "abracadabra" removed from all sense of meaning.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Wako
      Member
      • Dec 2021
      • 32

      As to Dharani, this is due to my belief that they were traditionally used as magic spells based on the power of sounds the origin and meaning of which are long long forgotten, much like the words "abracadabra." D.T. Suzuki wrote this about them ...
      Jundo, thanks for your detailed answer, which contains some humor.
      In my previous practice at the Moscow Zen Center and the Ingen-Ji temple, we used dharanis during services and I have always perceived them only as a tribute to tradition and ritual.
      Your point of view on Dharani is personally close to me, and Suzuki's words leave no doubt. "Pure Zen" without magic is close to me.

      Gassho
      Last edited by Wako; 12-24-2021, 08:16 AM.
      Wako
      和湖

      Comment

      • Guest

        I wish Merry Christmas to everybody !



        Yuki (雪)
        Sat today

        Comment

        • Guest

          Hi everybody !

          Maybe we could read this text from Thich Nhat Hanh this week ?

          « To combat the idea that the Mind Seal is a thing that can be transmitted or obtained from others, Master Vo Ngon Thon left this message for his disciple Cam Thanh before dying:

          At the four Cardinal points
          It is noised abroad
          That our founding patriarch lived in Indỉa
          And that he had transmitteđ his Eye of the Dharma treasure called “Thiên”:
          A flower, five petals,
          Perpetual seeds . . .
          Secret words, mystical symbols,
          And thousands of other similar things
          Are considered to belong to the Mind Sect of immaculate nature.
          Indeed, where is India? India is here itself.
          Sun and moon are the sun and moon of our time;
          Mountains and rivers are mountains and rivers of our time;
          To meddle with something, is to be attached to it;
          And one slanders even the Buddha and the Patriarchs.
          An error drags in its wake a thousand errors.
          Examine things closely,
          In order not to deceive your posterity.
          Don’t questíon me further:
          I have nothing to say, I have said nothing.

          “I have said nothing”: such is the conclusion of Master Vo Ngon Thong after having saỉd something. One sees clearly the “letting go” mind of Buddhism. To say something and to say it in such a way that people do not become attached to it is the meaning of the term “Vo Ngon Thong” (communion without words), which is precisely the name of this Zen Master. »

          From :
          Zen Keys, Thich Nhat Hanh


          See you soon !

          Yuki (雪)
          Sat today

          Comment

          • aprapti
            Member
            • Jun 2017
            • 889

            hi chanting sitters,

            i won't be there until next year.. so my best wishes and hope to see you all the third..




            aprapti

            hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

            Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

            Comment

            • Guest

              See you next year Aprapti !

              Deep bows

              Yuki (雪)
              Sat today

              Comment

              • Anchi
                Member
                • Sep 2015
                • 556

                Hello sisters and brothers,

                “Life and death are of supreme importance. Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost.
                Each of us should strive to awaken. Awaken! Take heed, do not squander your life.”.

                ― Dōgen Zenji

                May we all live the enlightened way Together through this year!
                Happy New Year, Happy Each New Moment !

                In Peace with Nine Bows,

                Life itself is the only teacher.
                一 Joko Beck


                STLah
                安知 Anchi

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40379

                  Originally posted by omom
                  Hello sisters and brothers,

                  “Life and death are of supreme importance. Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost.
                  Each of us should strive to awaken. Awaken! Take heed, do not squander your life.”.

                  ― Dōgen Zenji

                  May we all live the enlightened way Together through this year!
                  Happy New Year, Happy Each New Moment !

                  In Peace with Nine Bows,

                  Happy New Year, Guys!

                  Just a footnote, this is not really a Dogen quote however. The custom of this came to Japan much later it seems, brought by the Obaku Zen folks several hundred years after Dogen. From Taigen Dan Leighton, "Just This Is it: Dongshan and the Practice of Suchness",

                  Life and Death and the Great Matter

                  The wooden sounding block hit with a mallet to signal meditation or other communal events in Zen monasteries is calligraphed with an inscription about life and death. A simple version reads, "Life and death is the great matter; don't waste time."

                  A longer version includes two more lines ,"Life and death are the great matter. Be watchful of your time. All is impermanent and passes swiftly away. Time waits for no one."

                  I am not certain whether this wooden sounding block (pan in Chinese; han in Japanese) was used in Tang monasteries. But it was in use by the early Song, including this longer version of the verse inscribed on it:

                  Let me respectfully remind you
                  Life and death are of supreme importance.
                  Time swiftly passes by
                  And opportunity ist lost.
                  Each of us should strive to awaken.
                  Awaken, take heed,
                  Do not squander your life.

                  This verse and the custom of writing it on the pan reportedly goes back to monastic codes published in the early twelfth century and imported to japan in the seventeenth century.

                  Aside from this verse inscription, seen by all who visit Chan temples, the concern with seeing through the great matter of life and death is a central topic going back to the origins of Chan. For example, in chapter 6 it was recounted that the Chan Sixth Ancestor Huineng recommended that students see their original face before their parents were born. Considering life and death, and what precedes and follows life, is a strong encouragement to fully engage the practice of this life.
                  https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0obaku&f=false
                  My translation of this 生死事大 無常迅速 各宜醒覺 愼勿放逸 would be "Life Death are the Great Matter, All is lmpermanent swiftly passing; We are AWAKENED so should not waste the moment, The current Han at Tassajara, with Suzuki Roshi's translation (?), seems closer to my now already awakened.



                  Gassho, J

                  STLah
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Anchi
                    Member
                    • Sep 2015
                    • 556

                    Thank you for this precision, Jundo.


                    Deep bows,

                    Life itself is the only teacher.
                    一 Joko Beck


                    STLah
                    安知 Anchi

                    Comment

                    • Guest

                      Thanks Omom and Jundo for your New Year wishes and the nice precision about this interesting quote.

                      Joy and peace !



                      Yuki (雪)
                      Sat today

                      Comment

                      • Guest

                        Hi everybody !

                        I suggest the following text for beginning this new year ( with a touch of humor ) :


                        Don’t Read Books!

                        Don’t Read Books!
                        Don’t chant poems!
                        When you read books you’re eyeballs wither away,
                        leaving the bare sockets.
                        When you chant poems your heart leaks out slowly
                        with each word.
                        People say reading books is enjoyable.
                        People say chanting poems is fun.
                        But if your lips constantly make a sound
                        like an insect chirping in autumn,
                        you will only turn into a haggard old man.
                        And even if you don’t turn into a haggard old man,
                        it’s annoying for others to have to hear you.
                        It’s so much better
                        to close your eyes, sit in your study,
                        lower the curtains, sweep the floor,
                        burn incense.
                        It’s beautiful to listen to the wind,
                        listen to the rain,
                        take a walk when you feel energetic,
                        and when you’re tired go to sleep.

                        YANG WANLI
                        (1127–1206) Chinese poet and politician.


                        Fortunately, we sit as much than we chant and read… so we should be OK !

                        Have a nice Sunday !

                        Yuki (雪)
                        Sat today

                        Comment

                        • Hokin
                          Member
                          • Oct 2019
                          • 191

                          Originally posted by Yuki
                          Hi everybody !

                          I suggest the following text for beginning this new year ( with a touch of humor ) :


                          Don’t Read Books!

                          Don’t Read Books!
                          Don’t chant poems!
                          When you read books you’re eyeballs wither away,
                          leaving the bare sockets.
                          When you chant poems your heart leaks out slowly
                          with each word.
                          People say reading books is enjoyable.
                          People say chanting poems is fun.
                          But if your lips constantly make a sound
                          like an insect chirping in autumn,
                          you will only turn into a haggard old man.
                          And even if you don’t turn into a haggard old man,
                          it’s annoying for others to have to hear you.
                          It’s so much better
                          to close your eyes, sit in your study,
                          lower the curtains, sweep the floor,
                          burn incense.
                          It’s beautiful to listen to the wind,
                          listen to the rain,
                          take a walk when you feel energetic,
                          and when you’re tired go to sleep.

                          YANG WANLI
                          (1127–1206) Chinese poet and politician.


                          Fortunately, we sit as much than we chant and read… so we should be OK !

                          Have a nice Sunday !

                          Yuki (雪)
                          Sat today
                          Yuki, This is beautiful, really!
                          Thanks for sharing.


                          Gassho.
                          Hokin.
                          SAT.
                          法 金
                          (Dharma)(Metal)
                          Wisdom Is Compassion & Compassion Is Wisdom.

                          Comment

                          • Anchi
                            Member
                            • Sep 2015
                            • 556

                            Life itself is the only teacher.
                            一 Joko Beck


                            STLah
                            安知 Anchi

                            Comment

                            • Geika
                              Treeleaf Unsui
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 4985

                              Originally posted by Hokin
                              Yuki, This is beautiful, really!
                              Thanks for sharing.
                              I agree, I really liked that.

                              Gassho
                              Sat, lah
                              求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                              I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                              Comment

                              • aprapti
                                Member
                                • Jun 2017
                                • 889

                                Originally posted by Yuki
                                .
                                But if your lips constantly make a sound
                                like an insect chirping in autumn,
                                you will only turn into a haggard old man.
                                And even if you don’t turn into a haggard old man,
                                my lips make a sound: peace and all that is good in 2022



                                aprapti

                                sat oc

                                hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

                                Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

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