Consuming alcohol

[david u]

I think that it’s a personal choice, and not drinking does not make one a better Buddhist. I don’t drink at all because I don’t need to, or feel like it, but others should do as they wish. I don’t think it is a good idea however to take anything that clouds the mind, and if I were to drink, I would not drink before practice. But then again practice is an all day long affair for me so I guess that means I better not drink

[Ed]

I suspect every one of us knows someone for whom even a drop is poison. Nobody suffers from addiction in complete isolation. The suffering touches spouses, children, and friends.

I feel very lucky that alcohol does not hold much allure for me. I can enjoy a glass a few times a year, or not, it does not matter much. However, in my experience, most social gatherings involve nearly ubiquitous drinking. It is a social lubricant I guess, lowering the walls that most of us spend our lives building up. If ten to fifteen people are together in a room, statistically it is likely at that at least one of them is an alcoholic (recovering or not). So in any social situation, I choose not to drink (even a little), because there may be others in the room for whom even a drop is poison. Having another person present who chooses not to drink may help them avoid that first drop.

For me personally, "just a little drink" would keep the precept on intoxication, but "not a single drop" keeps the precept on devotion to Sangha (in the wider sense) if it helps someone who must abstain.

Gassho,
Sekishi

Thank you Sekishi. Just what I needed to hear.
Sometimes the Middle Way in our society means more than an apparent balancing of our desires.
Becoming aware of suffering around us is part of awakening, part of the practice.

In gassho.

[Daijo]

Again, I think it's a very complicated issue. Personally, I used to drink quite regularly, now I rarely drink. But I still do enjoy a nice whiskey from time to time, or a couple or four beers if the occasion is appropriate. On face value, I think that's fine. Of course only the individual person knows whether or not they can or cannot drink without creating problems. If you're honest with yourself, you will know the answer.

Scratch the surface though, and I think it can be much more complicated than using self control. I know I grew up in an environment that taught me drinking was "normal". Alcohol was always around me, so naturally I was conditioned to think it was what everyone did. Drink. Every day. So the question arises, if I drink, even in moderation, how is it perceived and understood by my children? And do they, or will they, have the fortitude to drink moderately? By drinking responsibly, am I causing harm to others? What if my moderate one whiskey is had in front of a stranger who happens to be an alcoholic? Do my actions effect her resolve? These are the arising questions that lay beneath the surface of "not intoxicating the mind" for me. Don't we have to take into consideration, "who's mind?" and remember that we are "not two."

These are only questions. I'm not pretending to know the answers, but it's definitely something I try to think about whenever I say to myself "I could go for a nice single malt right about now".

Deep bows,

Daijo

[Troy]

Everyone's experience is different, but I really have a dislike for any intoxicating chemical. I personally have a lot of anger towards drugs and alcohol and most certainly see it as a poison. I know first hand how abuse can damage our bodies, destroy our emotional well being, cause us to hurt those we love, sever important relationships, and so much more. My problem was more with drugs, but I do not consider alcohol abuse any different. I know most people don't have problems with addiction, so like I said everyone's experience different and I don't judge others. I just have a lot of unresolved anger about this topic.

[Meikyo]

Many thanks for all the advice!

Gassho

[Daiyo]

Scratch the surface though, and I think it can be much more complicated than using self control. I know I grew up in an environment that taught me drinking was "normal". Alcohol was always around me, so naturally I was conditioned to think it was what everyone did. Drink. Every day. So the question arises, if I drink, even in moderation, how is it perceived and understood by my children? And do they, or will they, have the fortitude to drink moderately? By drinking responsibly, am I causing harm to others? What if my moderate one whiskey is had in front of a stranger who happens to be an alcoholic? Do my actions effect her resolve? These are the arising questions that lay beneath the surface of "not intoxicating the mind" for me. Don't we have to take into consideration, "who's mind?" and remember that we are "not two."

Thanks, Daijo.

Your words reflect pretty much of my particular experience.
Honestly I never bothered before to think if my drinking could affect others than my directly related ones.
I never had addiction issues, but in my teens and part of my adult life, hard drinking was culturally seen (mostly among friends) as a men attribute.
I've started to question that only a short time ago.

How did you flick the switch? You can PM me if you prefer, or not answer at all.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Daijo]

I think the natural response is to divert the attention to a healthier addiction. That might not sound like good advice from a Buddhist context, but in truth, we evolved to be addictive creatures. Our brains have an addictive function. The trick is navigating in the world knowing the difference between healthy addictions and unhealthy addictions.

If you place a child in a room alone with a chocolate cake, and if they have a reference point for chocolate cake, and tell them not to eat it they're going to struggle. Most times, after a few moments go by, they're going to taste that cake. Some of them will try to find some other way to occupy their minds, in order to stop thinking about the cake. So the addictive trait is hardwired in us all.

What I did was replace my habitual drinking with habitual weight lifting. I don't obsess about it, because the chemical reaction in my brain isnt as strong as sugar or alcohol would be. But it does divert the addictive power of the mind to something else. Zazen also acts as a replacement.

Plus, when you think "If I drink, etc... I will ruin my work out, or I wont be able to sit zazen" It creates incentive to abstain.

[jeff_u]

Thank you Daijo for your words. I feel my experience has been very similar to yours. And as a result I've been weening myself off of alcohol for awhile now.


Addiction, as you pointed out, is hardwired. The impulsive, grasping part of the brain (like the midbrain dopamine system and others) is old (we share it with all mammals) and a very powerful motivator of behavior. But it evolved to help us survive and we can't live without it. Sometimes this system can go out of control, particularly with drugs, alcohol, or gambling which makes it constantly shift attentional resources back to getting the source of the original rush--it's why simply a picture or seeing someone else do something can trigger a strong craving in an addict. So why are we not all addicts?


Humans have the benefit of newer executive functions in the prefrontal cortex that can keep these behaviors in check. These systems help keep an eye on long term effects and can rationalize, "Hey I've got stuff to do tomorrow so maybe I shouldn't drink." For many, many people this system of checks and balances keeps them from plunging into addiction. But sometimes the target (alcohol etc) can create such a strong reward signal that over time (or less if a person has an addictive predisposition) it will overpower your executive functions and keep you locked in a behavioral loop (i.e. addiction). These competing systems make it clear that you can consciously not like your addiction and really want to quit, but easily relapse into the same behavior (this is not to say that individuals are always helpless or absolved of responsibility for their addictions, but I do think it means addicts are in need of a lot of compassion and support).


What has always been interesting to me is that this breakdown is not usually due to a breakdown in the reward system. It is doing exactly what eons of evolution trained it to do. It's usually that our executive functions aren't strong enough to pry the grip of the reward system off of our behavior after they've been trained to like something.


In short, this is why I've been weening myself off of alcohol because I think my reward system has been left dysfunctional from years of "casual drinking". The original novelty and enjoyment of even a glass of wine has long worn off because I've trained my brain to pursue it as a reward, which by definition will elude satisfaction. Learning to see into myself I know that I'm precipitously close to a single drop being poison.


The biggest help I've had comes from sitting Zazen. Being able to see my impulses rising and falling in my brain clearly, without judgment, has made it easier to see the attentional quicksand before I mindlessly wander into it. But Metta too also is very important, as you guys have mentioned, just someone seeing you drink may cause them to fall into a behavioral trap.


I hope this helps. With gratitude.


Gassho,
Jeff

[Daiyo]

Thanks Jeff.
Thanks all.

This thread is very helpful. It has helped me see things in a way I never did.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Daijo]

Very nice discussion. Thank you all.

Gassho,

Daijo

[Jishin]

Alcohol is a known lethal allergen to some. Why take the gamble and find out if you are allergic to it?

Gassho, Jishin

[Amelia]

Practicing not being attached to intoxication in all its forms. Practicing not being attached to avoiding intoxication in all its forms.

Gassho

[Jishin]

My opinion on the topic of alcohol comes from a personal and professional perspective. On a personal level, alcohol almost destroyed this body. Drugs and alcohol affect my loved ones, alive and deceased. On a professional level, I see the devastation it causes daily.

Alcoholics and addicts are not made. Alcoholics and addicts are born with the seeds of addiction. The genes for addiction remain unexpressed as long as the alcoholics and addicts never experiment with their drug of choice.

Drugs and alcohol have nothing to do with the middle way. Its an all or nothing proposition. It's either benign (you can drink and use in moderation) or not benign (you can not drink in moderation).

You don't have to worry if the bite of a snake is poisonous if you don't pick up the snake.

Gassho, Jishin

[david u]

I agree with your post Jishin
Alcohol is the cause of destruction and suffering for many people. Another reason for which I do not drink is because I do not want to support companies that produce a substance that is the cause of so much suffering as alcohol is. I boycott certain things in my life for ethical reason and alcohol is one of them, along with anything that is not a life necessity and is the cause of suffering.

[Amelia]

You don't have to worry about suffering if you are never born to begin with!