Question on the first precept...Meat eating

[Marjorie]

I dont think we need meat. Im working on being a vegetarian.. Not 100 percent successful yet because Im having issues finding good protein substitute that Im not allergic to.. If you take in the meat it does not digest well and its what I hear can be causing a lot of colon cancers. You are what you eat.?? The screaming of the death ramble of a sientient animal is not an image I want to put in my mouth as a I put the meat there too. I imagine one would be far healthier as well without it.

[bya]

Coming from a Chinese tradition I was honestly very surprised to fine out so many Buddhists were not vegetarians. At first I didn't think it would be possible for me to work with a teacher who was a meat eater. To be perfectly honest it still bothers me a little bit. But, I've come to find that locating a zen teacher that I can relate to on an intimate student/teacher level is difficult enough. Finding one who is also vegetarian is almost impossible. Perhaps there might be something for me to teach the teacher if the opportunity presents itself, if not, I will just continue to practice with my own understandings. If the calling ever arises and I find myself in a teachers role, I would probably encourage those committed to eating meat to consider seeking a different teacher. Because my understanding of first precept of non-killing may be too strict. As for right here and now, I am a simple practitioner, so I only share my opinions on the subject when it arises in conversation. Otherwise I try to keep my opinions to myself.

Since we are talking about it here, again, I would point to anyone interested the website http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/ This is a group of Buddhist practitioners from all traditions committed to, at the very least, removing animal products from dharma centers.

I think I agree almost completely: my "do not kill" is complete only if I do not kill *and* I do not pay others to kill.
Otherwise, pay others to kill and deny that this causes death would be... to deny karma... or to accept my willing to kill, and I do not want to kill.
Also I cannot consider to "kill" a carrot at the same level of killing a cow, neuroscience is quite clear about this point.
I am a human, I *have* to eat life in order to survive (there is a difference between heterotroph and autotroph I have to keep in count :-) ) but I want to reduce this "disturb" to the smallest possible level, obviously respecting my life too and in order to survive with a good health status, I don't need meat at all.

_/\_

bya

[Shinyo]

Just my opinion, but it seems that our very existence involves the taking of life. If we choose to eat only vegetables, fruits, and grains, then what of the habitat that we take from other living beings? Not to mention pesticides. Even driving in your car. Anyone who's cleaned a windshield has witnessed this. Do we watch every step when walking? So much to consider. I think it is more than just meat or no meat.

[Daijo]

Just my opinion, but it seems that our very existence involves the taking of life. If we choose to eat only vegetables, fruits, and grains, then what of the habitat that we take from other living beings? Not to mention pesticides. Even driving in your car. Anyone who's cleaned a windshield has witnessed this. Do we watch every step when walking? So much to consider. I think it is more than just meat or no meat.

We don't actually take anything from other living beings by eating vegetables. The truth is we take from all beings by growing food crops simply for feeding animals bound for slaughter. The amount of food raised for the slaughter industry is enough to feed the world 30 times over. Of course there's no profit in feeding the world, so until we change our views on "success" it's doubtful we'll go that route.

[Shinyo]

I really think it's a matter of intentions.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[bya]

Just my opinion, but it seems that our very existence involves the taking of life. If we choose to eat only vegetables, fruits, and grains, then what of the habitat that we take from other living beings? Not to mention pesticides. Even driving in your car. Anyone who's cleaned a windshield has witnessed this. Do we watch every step when walking? So much to consider. I think it is more than just meat or no meat.

It is a fact that, by living on this planet, every animal and every plant too, "disturbs" someone else. It is a matter of love and empathy to reduce this stress to the lowest possible grade.
Not to kill and not to eat flesh ( -> ask someone else to kill in my place) represent, in my humble opinion, the very entry level of empathy.
A further level could be considered to eat only organic food, to become a vegan maybe, to use car only when really needed and so on...

[Shinyo]

Something of interest to this discussion: http://www.businessinsider.com/plant...-eaten-2014-10


Gassho,
Shinyo

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link. Terrific subject.

For one to live, one must die.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Biko]

I often see a lot of mental gymnastics from Buddhists who eat animal flesh to justify the habit. And that is exactly what it is, a habit and quite possibly an addiction. It's talked about like it is tantamount to kicking heroin. It is an attachment. To my mind if someone has taken Jukai and taken the precepts into their karmic sphere, to continue to engage in the consumption of sentient beings is a pretty grievous violation. Of course we are a biological being that needs to consume once or currently living matter in order to fuel and heal our organism / biological shell / mortal coil, but as preceptors it is our karmic responsibility to eat as low on the food chain as we possibly can and for most of us in the free world, that means plants, dairy and MAYBE eggs. If you really need help kicking meat, the next time you are eating it imagine that you are devouring a beloved family member or partner, because if you believe in rebirth, it literally has been those people, several times over.

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Shinyo]

Both sides will rationalize to make a point, much like politics. maybe a middle way is healthier. I don't know. I'm not enlightened, so very limited in knowing what is "right".

Gassho,
Shinyo

[TimF]

Well, I hate to kick a hornet's nest here, but I would like someone to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that plants are not 'sentient', because some of mine sure behave like they are!

I think it comes down to respect versus abuse and waste. If you respect what you eat (no mental gymnastics here). and do not conduct your eating habits in a wasteful or abusive manner, then I think you are doing the best you can in a world - and universe - that is complicated beyond our imagination.

Gassho,
Tim

[Shinyo]

Yes. Respect and gratitude. When we are wasteful, we are disrespectful. That food didn't just jump onto the plate. It is good to be mindful of where the food came from, who prepared it, who grew it, who harvested it, who cared for it, and on and on. So much to be grateful for in each bite that prolongs our lives.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[Stacy]

Well, I hate to kick a hornet's nest here, but I would like someone to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that plants are not 'sentient', because some of mine sure behave like they are!

I think it comes down to respect versus abuse and waste. If you respect what you eat (no mental gymnastics here). and do not conduct your eating habits in a wasteful or abusive manner, then I think you are doing the best you can in a world - and universe - that is complicated beyond our imagination.

Gassho,
Tim

Yes. Respect and gratitude. When we are wasteful, we are disrespectful. That food didn't just jump onto the plate. It is good to be mindful of where the food came from, who prepared it, who grew it, who harvested it, who cared for it, and on and on. So much to be grateful for in each bite that prolongs our lives.

Gassho,
Shinyo

Whatever the case may be, I respect everyone here for their own decisions. It is all opinions (which we can also get attached to). We must each figure out our middle way in all of this, and we also have other factors at work (such as income, locations, and illness) that prevent us from doing what might be ideal.

Metta to each and every single one of you.

Gassho,
Stacy

[Shinyo]

Yes Stacy. It really is about opinions and attachments. As humans, it is difficult for us to let go of attachments. So much so that we feel the need to defend them. I think it's good to remain open, not concluding.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[bya]

Thank you for the article, interesting subject. My two cents: we should not judge suffering only through our perception solely. A fish won't cry or scream, but suffers a lot when beaten or killed. So I think se won't have to say that plants don't suffer only because we don't "ear" their lamentations. So we have to investigate. Science help us a lot, of course, and can also help us to discriminate what has or not a central nervous system, that is the very basis to feel something like pain. I think that, at least, we should not kill ANY sentient being, that is any living creature with neurons. Vegetables surely possess some mechanisms to survive (they are living beings) but they are not sentient in the way a cow is. So I prefer to eat vegetables than cows, just because this behaviour produces less suffering. But you could also eat only fruits and seeds, without harming plants.

I am sorry but I think that to eat or not to eat meat, particularly for a Buddhist, cannot be a matter of "choice" or "opinion": that is because I can express my preference regarding colors or music (for example) harming none but, when I express my " choice " to kill a sentient creature that for sure (!) can feel pain and fear as I can, I am simply killing.
Even slavery, a long time ago, was a matter of choice, just because the law allowed it.

Gassho.

Bya

Something of interest to this discussion: http://www.businessinsider.com/plant...-eaten-2014-10


Gassho,
Shinyo