Question on the first precept...Meat eating

[TimF]

I am a meat-eater, and have been doing so all of my 46 years. I plan on taking Jukai also this year, and the thought of stopping my consumption of meat has rarely (pun intended!) crossed my mind. With that said, I am 100% for the humane treatment of animals, and while it is more expensive to do so, try to shop for local stuff (hard to do in Las Vegas) whenever I can, as well as meats that are from farms where the animals are treated better than the disgusting way feedlots and mass-production facilities do.

On a side note, while I love most veggies and fruit, I am a bit cantankerous when it comes to legumes...I can't stand the texture of most beans, which would seriously limit my protein selections if I were to try and take a trip to the vegetarian/vegan-side.

Gassho,
Tim

[Daiyo]

Thank you all for your comments.
I've learnt a lot from them.

As a beginner, I am starting to face the challenges that this new path I've chosen brings along the way.
I can't become a vegetarian instantly as much as I can not fully abandon anger and greed form one day to the other.
It is imposible and unreal to change one's decades-long habits in the short term. True compassion is not developed instantly.
One of the things that attracted me to buddhism, and specially to zen is the lack of heaven-or-hellish, guilt-generating pointing fingers.

I've grown up with guilt and now I've decided to throw it away, however being honest and compassionate truly as much as I can.

If I choose to be a vegetarian (for example) it must be after I've "realized" the need to do it, because if I try to force myself, that would be no choice, not a genuine option.

Gassho,
Walter

[Meishin]

Hi,

I love this Suzuki Roshi story from "Crooked Cucumbers."

"Once when Tassajara, a mountain retreat center, was being built, a carpenter was working on it; he was not a Zen student but a yoga student; he kept a strict vegetarian diet, eating mostly fruit and nuts. He was driving Roshi back to San Francisco, along the Coast highway, when they both got hungry. Roshi wanted to stop right away but the carpenter kept on driving, looking for a place where he could get pure food. All they passed, however, were hot-dog and hamburger and taco joints. Roshi kept saying, How about stopping at this place? But the carpenter kept saying, No let's go on a little more. Looking for his fresh fruit meal. Finally Roshi told him to just stop at the next hamburger stand. The carpenter ordered a grilled cheese sandwich. Roshi ordered a cheeseburger. When the food came Roshi took one bite out of his cheeseburger. The carpenter took a bite out of his grilled cheese. Then Roshi made a face and said, I don't like this. He handed the cheeseburger to the carpenter, and took the grilled cheese for himself. You eat it, said Roshi."

http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/suzuki%20stories/fields-naj.html

I have great respect for strict vegans. But having traveled that path myself, I was forced by health concerns to strike a middle way. I grew up on a farm and can readily see the difference between how animals (and crops) were treated then and now. It breaks my heart. But I have adopted Suzuki Roshi's habit, whenever one harms a sentient being, of saying "excuse me." This probably means nothing to those who are comfortable with other positions. But it is a way of continually being aware that we live only due to the work and sacrifice of others. It also implies that I too recognize that I am part of that food chain.

Gassho
John

[Daijo]

Hi Daijo,

I honor and respect your position on this, but wonder what you would tell the historical Buddha himself who apparently ate meat with certain restrictions?

And do you avoid the wearing of all leather products? (It is little known fact that leather was sometimes mentioned as one possible material for a Kesa.)

Yes, Japanese Zen folks tend to some flexibility on this issue. Several stories such as the following are told about Suzuki Roshi. ..

http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/brief%20memories/dennis-white.html

Gassho, J

Respectfully I would say that the Buddha's exact views on meat eating have been debated by Buddhist factions for 2,ooo years. For instance the Lankavatara Suttra seems to contradict the view that the Buddha condones meat eating. Again, The Buddha's views, I would say are still open for debate. I would agree that the Buddha did say, when begging, to accept what is offered. I'm not sure I would interpret that as permission to place whatever I wish in my own bowl though. I also think it's worth noting that the Buddha did not live in a world where meat was industrialized, or a world where people were raised to eat it three times a day. We have to remember that in most of the world, for most of history, meat was a rare delicacy to begin with. It's hard to imagine it would have been offered to begging monks very often. "Beggars can't be choosers" if you will, but choosers can.

As for leather, I haven't worn it for years now.

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to be argumentative or judgmental. Sometimes the typed word it can come across that way. I'm just sharing my own personal opinions on the matter. And my opinions plus $2.75 will get me on the subway.

[Byokan]

Hi All,

I’ve been struggling with the meat thing too. I have been vegetarian and mostly vegetarian before. I always believed that it was the healthiest diet, in addition to being more ethical. Over the years I had developed several auto-immune diseases, was really not doing well at all and spiraling slowly downward. I tried everything, nothing really helped. I started hearing about the Paleo/Primal lifestyle. I did lots of research and was surprised to find myself abandoning some of conventional wisdom about nutrition. Long story short, out of desperation I gave it a try (gave up grains & legumes, started eating more meat, etc.) and I am now healthier than I have ever been, and improving still.


However, I am not comfortable with the ethics of meat eating. I am lucky to have local, affordable sources of humanely & organically raised meat, and that’s great as far as it goes. But I’d rather eat as low on the food chain as possible. I think about it every day and wrestle with it. I think I will probably have to give up the meat eating, it feels like the right thing to do. But I dread having all the auto-immune stuff come back. It’s a problem, but I hope to find some way to be healthy and also in line with my practice. Working on it. Everyone has to find their own way.

Gassho
Lisa

[Daiyo]

Hi all, I kept reading this interesting thread, and now a new question appears.

¿Would it be better or "more skillful" to go to a farm (one where an animal lives rather free and easy) and get an animal butchered for consumption, or consume an already butchered one which you don't know in which conditions it was raised and killed?
I don't want to mess things up.
But I think that if we are discussing ethical or karmic issues, this is relevant.

Gassho,
Walter

[Daijo]

I would say that it is probably more ethical to do so Walter. Perhaps the cow would disagree, but if you're going to make the choice to eat meat then doing so with the least amount of cruelty is probably the best approach. Though I'm not certain it's very plausible for most of us. If anyone does decide that veganism is the way, then I also suggest educating yourself first. Many people just cut out animal products but suffer from malnutrition because they don't eat the right foods. Protein isn't really a problem as protein is found in all plant based whole foods. You could nothing but eat white rice and potatoes (the lowest quantities of protein) and still get your daily recommended value. The problems usually come from eating overly processed foods, not supplementing vitamin b (though eating fermented foods daily will cover you), and not eating enough. So if one does decide to choose a vegan diet, use care to be sure to eat healthy. It's not for everyone, I admit that. But it isn't as difficult as it's made out to be. Most of us face the most difficulty due to our conditioned views that we are "supposed" to eat meat. It's cultural, and breaking from the normal view comes with all sorts of unexpected baggage.

I'm going to bow out of the conversation now in fear that I'm coming across to "preachy". To each their own. I would be happy to discuss, or debate, or share recipes in private messages if anyone wishes.

Peace, and much love to you all,

Daijo

[Daijo]

Hi All,

I’ve been struggling with the meat thing too. I have been vegetarian and mostly vegetarian before. I always believed that it was the healthiest diet, in addition to being more ethical. Over the years I had developed several auto-immune diseases, was really not doing well at all and spiraling slowly downward. I tried everything, nothing really helped. I started hearing about the Paleo/Primal lifestyle. I did lots of research and was surprised to find myself abandoning some of conventional wisdom about nutrition. Long story short, out of desperation I gave it a try (gave up grains & legumes, started eating more meat, etc.) and I am now healthier than I have ever been, and improving still.


However, I am not comfortable with the ethics of meat eating. I am lucky to have local, affordable sources of humanely & organically raised meat, and that’s great as far as it goes. But I’d rather eat as low on the food chain as possible. I think about it every day and wrestle with it. I think I will probably have to give up the meat eating, it feels like the right thing to do. But I dread having all the auto-immune stuff come back. It’s a problem, but I hope to find some way to be healthy and also in line with my practice. Working on it. Everyone has to find their own way.

Gassho
Lisa

Be very careful not to put your health at risk. Causing yourself illness is never an ethical approach to life. But if you do attempt to go to a meat free lifestyle, I'm always available for questions....though if you have major health concerns directly related to food, I would refer you to those with medical expertise who happen to be proponents of vegetarianism.

[Byokan]

Hi Daijo,

thanks for the good advice. BTW, I don't think you're being preachy at all, you've brought up several interesting points. Some I agree with, some I don't, but I enjoy the discussion and exploration.

Gassho
Lisa

[Daiyo]

Thanks Daijo.

Honestly, I don't feel capable of turning fully vegetarian now mostly due to the cultural issues I mentioned above, but also other reasons.
It's not plausible for me to purchase all the meat my family gets from farms like that. Not even a small amount, since there are few if any such farms that I know in Argentina. At least for cow meat. One can purchase perhaps pork and chicken, but it is way more expensive and i don't know if I could afford it.
So it's fully vegetarian or nothing, and for now I can't.

But I surely can (and will continue to) reduce meat consumption and consume mindfully.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Amelia]

Sometimes meat,
Sometimes not,
Maybe, never again
A bow to you

[rego]

Thank you all for your comments. This is something I struggle with. I was a vegetarian for many years before I started eating meet again. I'm able to get free range beef from the co-op down the street, but I don't do it as often as I should. Anyway, I appreciate the differing viewpoints in this thread.

Andrew

[Jamie]

I really like Jundo's post of Suzuki Roshi's statement " ideals are the death of reality".
I am vegetarian but three or four times a year when I am at someone's for dinner and they happen to give me meat, I'll eat it.
Sometimes I feel like I would kill for a steak, but it passes - old habits.
I don't drink alcohol but at a friend's 40 th a couple of months ago he was going around having shots of Jaggermeister with everyone. When he got to me, I had one with him. He said it meant a lot to him that I did that. It was delicious.
I live in a meat eating, alcohol using culture. That's my reality.
You worried meat eaters should look up Yottam Ottolegnhi's vego recipes. Ottolegnhi's is not vegetarian but he does great vego food, and suggests having a lamb chop as a side dish. The recipes are simple and delicious, and it may be helpful for you to try meals where meat is not the main event.
Gassho
Jamie

[Dylan]

The mantras I have found helpful here are these:

"Compassion is the trump card." Compassion towards animals, plants, the self, and others. I stopped buying factory farmed meat, but I'll still eat the BBQ at my co-workers going away party, and I see no difference in eating meat (so long as the animal lived a non-abusive life) or a plant. Would I if I needed to, out of hunger? Yes, as compassion for the self, just as important as any other compassion. Do I cook factory farmed meat for my hungry, pregnant wife who truly believes she needs that steak? Yes I do.

"If you need to kill, do so mindfully, acknowledging and respecting the life you are taking." We all need to eat to survive. Do so mindfully, within your needs. Do what you can, take the middle-path.

[Kaishin]

It's important to think about the source of your food, whether omnivorous, vegan, or somewhere in between. If you are vegan but eat nothing but McDonald's french fries, Coca-cola, and heavily processed vegan meals flown 1000s of miles from somewhere else after being boxed up in a factory. Ethics and ecology go much deeper than what touches your lips... I'd honestly rather eat freshly killed deer than a brick of tofu. And I was a vegetarian for many years, vegan for several. Sourcing food locally is much more important to me now. I've looked into the eyes of the cows that provide milk. I'm lucky to live in farm country, though.