Question on the first precept...Meat eating

[Mp]

but also about the conditions these animals must bear, the harmful effects of factory farming on the environment

Thank you Jakudo ... we have talked about this before and I feel this too is important; along side the of the killing of animals. Not all folks can eat a vegetarian/vegan diet (health issues), but one can make a choice of where they get their meat and how the animals are treated.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jishin]

From thestar.com:

Unlike most Buddhist monks, who don’t eat meat because they believe it’s wrong to slaughter any sentient being, the Dalai Lama is not a vegetarian.
“In the 1960s, he tried it for a bit but had to give it up after he got sick with hepatitis,” explains Takhla.
His compromise is to eat vegetarian in Dharamsala and meat dishes when he’s on the road and it’s offered by his hosts.

He is on the road a lot.


Gassho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

For myself being a vegitarian is not only about the taking of life, but also about the conditions these animals must bear, the harmful effects of factory farming on the environment, and also the fact that consuming meat is so wasteful.

That was actually my main reason to become a vegetarian (i.e. it had not much to do with my being a Buddhist). The mass "production" of meat is - as Hans called it - a terrible perversion.
If things were like in the "good old times" I might still eat meat, but the way animals in industrial meat production are treated is unspeakable...
And there are still lots of people nowadays who don't know what's going on and how the objectified meat in their plate came to the supermarket.

As Shingen pointed out there are still other sources to get meat - where animals are not treated that way (although more expensive - at least that's the case here in Germany).

IMHO it is already a good thing to reduce ones meat consumption. Nowadays many adults eat too much meat (some people almost every day). Reducing this is an important step, if one does not manage or want to completely go vegetarian.

All in all the whole thing is an individual decision and I never proselytize (even several friends of mine don't know I am vegetarian).
For me it boiled down to knowing that I don't need meat in order to nurture my body, and that the only reason for eating meat (and thus for the death of another sentient being) would be for my personal pleasure/taste.
I personally could not reconcile eating meat with my conscience anymore and quit. In little steps btw, and in that way it was quite easy to stop completely when the time came.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Jakudo]

The Tibetan diet is much like our Inuit first Nation people. There simply is not enough arable land to grow vegetables to feed everyone.

[Jundo]

Yes, there are many good perspectives on all sides of this issue. We do always take this up in some detail during our annual Jukai reflections on the Precepts. I will post the below from an old thread on Vegetarianism and Buddhism. The historical Buddha likely ate meat if placed in his bowl (although he would not solicit it). South Asian, Tibetan, many Japanese and other Buddhist clergy will eat meat (some do not), although the call for vegetarian is very strong and strict in Chinese Buddhism.

Personally, I (Nishijima Roshi did too) believe that meat can be taken in moderation. although we should consider the humane treatment of animals and the environment. I believe that industrial farming presents serious issues on respect for life, not only with regard to meat, but also eggs, milk and cheese and the like. We need to treat animals better even if cows for milking. I am not as concerned by a humane taking of life of animals as much as the poor treatment of animals in industrial farming prior to the taking of life, plus the effect of industrial farming on our environment.

A small bit of trivia is that the Dalai Lama, and many in the Tibetan traditions, are not vegetarian either ... He was briefly, then returned to eating meat for health reasons.

Quotes on Vegetarianism by the World's Most Famous Buddhist-
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama (1989 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate):

In the mid 1960s, the Dalai Lama was impressed by ethically vegetarian Indian monks and adopted a vegetarian diet for about a year and a half. Apparently he consumed primarily nuts and milk. Unfortunately, he contracted Hepatitis B and his liver was seriously damaged. For health reasons, he was advised by his personal physicians to consume meat. While he has eaten meat in moderation ever since, the Dalai Lama has repeatedly acknowledged that a vegetarian diet is a worthy expression of compassion and contributes to the cessation of the suffering of all living beings. However, he eats meat only on alternate days (six months a year). He is a semi-vegetarian, though he wishes to be a full one. By making an example of cutting his meat consumption in half, he is trying to gently influence his followers.

"While many of the great Tibetan teachers did and do eat animals, the Dalai Lama has broken new ground by publicly stating his case for vegetarianism. If we seriously consider the compassion inherent in His Holiness’ advice and actions, Buddhist meat-eaters could similarly try to eat vegetarian at least every other day to start out with. Since Buddhists have taken vows not to kill, they should not support a livelihood that makes others kill. Even if one does not have great compassion for animals this would meritoriously save humans from performing heinous deeds. The power of each human being becoming vegetarian releases the most intense suffering of the animal realm—the agony of factory-farmed animals. This profound action can help slow the grinding wheels of samsara, bringing to a halt the cycles of suffering of the entire animal realm and influencing their eventual liberation. When animals are not just looked upon as creatures to fill our stomachs, they can be seen as they really are—beings who have the same Buddha nature as we all do."

-----------------

Here is a bit of Buddhist trivia. Although subject to some debate, the historical Buddha (Guatama Buddha) was not quite vegetarian according to the original texts. Here is a summary.

Monks then as now were expected to accept offerings from the faithful graciously and without question. Therefore, it is likely that the Buddha ate meat, since meat was a part of the offerings he received. However, it's also quite likely that he did not want animals killed specifically for his or his followers consumption. For example, the code of conduct for Buddhist Monks (ascribed to the Buddha) has a specific reference to the meat of an animal.

If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it. - Mahavagga of the Vinaya Pitaka

Here is a more detailed discussion of the debate about the original texts on this issue, Note that, for the most part, the later Mahayana Sutras were more decidedly vegetarian, although the older Pali Suttas were not.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/vegetarianism.htm

Nishijima Roshi (as with many Japanese monks) eats meat and fish, in moderation. He thinks there are certain proteins and such that can only be had from meat and fish, and that we are naturally meant to eat some meat. However, he is not in any way an expert on the bio-chemistry of vegetarianism, so many vegetarians say his understanding of replacing those proteins with other sources like tofu and such is wrong. I have passed the information on to him. I don't think he will change his view at age 90.

Gassho, J

[Daijo]

Coming from a Chinese tradition I was honestly very surprised to fine out so many Buddhists were not vegetarians. At first I didn't think it would be possible for me to work with a teacher who was a meat eater. To be perfectly honest it still bothers me a little bit. But, I've come to find that locating a zen teacher that I can relate to on an intimate student/teacher level is difficult enough. Finding one who is also vegetarian is almost impossible. Perhaps there might be something for me to teach the teacher if the opportunity presents itself, if not, I will just continue to practice with my own understandings. If the calling ever arises and I find myself in a teachers role, I would probably encourage those committed to eating meat to consider seeking a different teacher. Because my understanding of first precept of non-killing may be too strict. As for right here and now, I am a simple practitioner, so I only share my opinions on the subject when it arises in conversation. Otherwise I try to keep my opinions to myself.

Since we are talking about it here, again, I would point to anyone interested the website http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/ This is a group of Buddhist practitioners from all traditions committed to, at the very least, removing animal products from dharma centers.

[Daiyo]

I couldn't finish watching the video at

http://www.meat.org/

I'm in deep trouble now.

Gassho,
Walter

[Risho]

Daijo, I respect that view and appreciate your candor. I wonder if sometimes my desire to consume meat ignores the call of the Bodhisattva vows. I try to eat meat that is humanely raised, but it's still an animal being killed; how humane can that be?

Why don't I eat my dogs? There is no rational division between "my dogs" and some "livestock"... it's the me vs. other. I don't know... it's something I wrestle with a lot.

These are not easy questions, that's for sure.

Gassho,

Risho

[Daijo]

I just listened to an interview by dharma teacher Dr. Will Tuttle on the issue of a peaceful diet. His position is that your "desire to eat meat" comes from conditioning and indoctrination through tradition. It's what we think, no, what we KNOW, we're supposed to do.

[Rich]

I'm all in favor of lessoning our dependence on animal protein but I wouldn't judge others on it. Vegetarianism has been such a divisive issue in the various Buddhist schools and cultures that I Tend to respect wherever you are in the food spectrum.

Kind regards. /\

[Daijo]

I guess I don't look at it so much as a Buddhist principle as I do a part of my belief in cause and effect. I'm coming at the issue from a very deep belief that there are unknown and known consequences to my actions, and also to my non actions. I believe that breeding, raising, slaughtering, butchering, and selling flesh for profit isn't just a moral dilemma but it is a negative karmic force. I really believe if I take part in it, I am part of it. Now certainly we can say, well you must kill the micro organisms, and step on bugs, and so on and so on.....but I find these to be A) excuses to defend our own attachment to animal consumption and B) things in which there is no clear and present choice. I am aware that I must unintentionally kill bugs while driving, etc.... But I can make a very clear choice to refrain from consuming or wearing animals. I can live a long and healthy life as a vegetarian simply by educating myself and making the effort to do so. As I said in my original post, I can do so without thinking the worse of others, But at the same time to honor my Bodhisattva vow to save all sentient beings I believe in respectfully challenging theories that support flesh eating. but again, only when the conversation is brought up.

With respect and deep bows,

Daijo

[Rich]

Daijo, I respect that you are a vegetarian. And from an idealistic perspective you are correct. However, surviving in a frigid climate is not a theory that supports flesh eating, it is a reality that requires flesh eating. For me personally, I will make an effort to replace animal protein with vegetable protein. But I doubt if I could ever be 100% vegetarian again.

Kind regards. /\

[Hotetsu]

Hi all,



Thank you to everybody for the wonderful conversation. I will definitely begin to be much more mindful on my food intake and where it comes from. I do think that during Ango I will limit my meat eating to the bare minimum (though if I know what's good for me, I'll eat what my wife makes, regardless :-p).

Gassho,
Scott


Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

[RichardH]

I have taken the precept not to take life, yet several minutes ago took the life of a mosquito. It had already drawn blood and was full, so it made a mess. That is one of the many contradictions I live. Not long ago I found a big green preying mantis sitting on a planter on a busy street. Kids were surrounding it and were starting to torment it. It made me angry and i stepped in, carrying it on a stick over to a park to release it. I felt a kind of awe, like it was a little god.

Hunting an animal for food, seeing with your own eyes the taking of life, does not morally upset me. The First Nations people of this country are not karmically accursed for living that way for eons... context is the thing. Modern factory farms will one day be looked back on with disbelief... I hope. But at the same time I have a disconnect and do eat meat...on and off. Sometimes I can't. With exposure to the process I could become thoroughly repulsed by meat and it would fall away. It's amazing how we can live with these contradictions.

Friendship with anti-meat activists taught me to observe the totality of conduct, not just what someone eats. I came along on a protest once and almost got strung up for apologizing to the manager of a Mcdonalds where they had been verbally abusing the customers with righteous venom. I felt ashamed to be associated with them, even though I feel in my heart that I should end the use of animal products..... within reason... meaning I will do my best.

Gassho
Daizan

[Jundo]

Coming from a Chinese tradition I was honestly very surprised to fine out so many Buddhists were not vegetarians. At first I didn't think it would be possible for me to work with a teacher who was a meat eater. To be perfectly honest it still bothers me a little bit. But, I've come to find that locating a zen teacher that I can relate to on an intimate student/teacher level is difficult enough. Finding one who is also vegetarian is almost impossible. Perhaps there might be something for me to teach the teacher if the opportunity presents itself, if not, I will just continue to practice with my own understandings. If the calling ever arises and I find myself in a teachers role, I would probably encourage those committed to eating meat to consider seeking a different teacher. Because my understanding of first precept of non-killing may be too strict. As for right here and now, I am a simple practitioner, so I only share my opinions on the subject when it arises in conversation. Otherwise I try to keep my opinions to myself.

Since we are talking about it here, again, I would point to anyone interested the website http://dharmavoicesforanimals.org/ This is a group of Buddhist practitioners from all traditions committed to, at the very least, removing animal products from dharma centers.

Hi Daijo,

I honor and respect your position on this, but wonder what you would tell the historical Buddha himself who apparently ate meat with certain restrictions?

And do you avoid the wearing of all leather products? (It is little known fact that leather was sometimes mentioned as one possible material for a Kesa.)

Yes, Japanese Zen folks tend to some flexibility on this issue. Several stories such as the following are told about Suzuki Roshi. ..

The two really life changing meetings for me are as follows....The background is that I was a vegetarian for a number of years and very rigid (and quite obnoxious ) when it came to issues surrounding eating meat.So... during a sesshin Loring Palmer who was the head cook, put fish stock in the soup. I got into it with him, quotes I can remember are ( him ) saying : "I'll throw your ass out of here" ( the kitchen that is ), and, ( me ) "yeah, you and what Army?.Reb happened to be around, so somehow I was lassoed and taken up for an interview with Roshi right away, as it was a sesshin and all.I went in , and bowed, sat down in zazen with Roshi, and blurted out : "Roshi, Loring put fish stock in the soup, and we don't usually do that here, and I haven't eaten meat or fish for six years, blah, blah, blah". and Roshi sat there just listening with no sense of judgment or reaction, and at a certain point my batteries just ran down, as there didn't seem to be any sense of resistance or support for my rant, and I shut up and we just sat, for what seemed like a long time (but it probably wasn't .)Then all of a sudden Roshi spoke, and it felt like thunder rolling through my head, (although I'm almost sure he didn't raise his voice at all ) and he said, "Let me tell you something. Your ideals are the death of reality." Then he said, "You can be 99% perfect in this world if you like, or even 90%, but don't ever try to be 100% perfect, because you just push the world away from you, and have no relation to it "From there he talked a bit more, the one thing I remember is him saying something about that he didn't really prefer to eat meat, but when he visited friends who served it, it was just easier to go along with it.

http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber%20Project/brief%20memories/dennis-white.html

Gassho, J