When we take Buddhism out of Zen

[Jishin]

Nice!
You have a beard.

Not a red one, just gray and black.

Gassho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

Not a red one, just gray and black.

Hehe, then it's good we are not attached to color.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Tiwala]

It may be, but really the point is not different in Keizan's recommendation from following the breadth, reciting a mantra, focusing on one's belly button or the tip of the nose, focusing on some target ... just an anchor to use temporarily to center the mind and let things settle a bit. After things settle a bit, then one returns to open, spacious sitting. It is not the typical "Koan Introspection Zazen" meant to pierce the Koan in the Rinzai way, but just a handle to let one get a quick grip.

In the usual poetic way these old guys had of expressing things, Keizan says earlier in the essay about "no right or wrong" Zazen when done "right" ...



Gassho, Jundo

Actually, from what I READ, at least (never actually studied under a Chinese or Korean teacher), the way they usually use a koan or huatou isn't meant to answer a question, but to deepen samadhi using doubt as a tool. In other words, they do not seek to pierce or even answer a koan/huatou. I think this is why in most of these traditions, they continue to practice huatou even after proverbial enlightenment, just as in Japanese Soto to practice shikantaza forever. There's a story about it in Xu Yun's teachings about Dragon Pants man who kept the huatou even after he was 'enlightened'.

Gassho, Ben

[Heisoku]

This thread is pure Treeleaf! Gassho.

[Seiryu]

Actually, from what I READ, at least (never actually studied under a Chinese or Korean teacher), the way they usually use a koan or huatou isn't meant to answer a question, but to deepen samadhi using doubt as a tool. In other words, they do not seek to pierce or even answer a koan/huatou. I think this is why in most of these traditions, they continue to practice huatou even after proverbial enlightenment, just as in Japanese Soto to practice shikantaza forever. There's a story about it in Xu Yun's teachings about Dragon Pants man who kept the huatou even after he was 'enlightened'.

Gassho, Ben

Actually from what I've practiced and seen, during my time with both the Kwan Um school and with a Korean Zen teacher separate from KUSZ, you are very much expected to be able to present an answer to your koan (Kung-an -Korean) or hwadu. If you had had a deep meditation experience or some insights, the idea is these answers should come out spontaneously. Dharma transmission in these traditions is given to those who can "pass" the most difficult of koans.

My Korean zen teacher once ask me about the Soto school. "If they do not use koans, how does the teacher know where the student is at?"
So, you are expected to answer. at least from what I've seen.

[Tiwala]

Actually from what I've practiced and seen, during my time with both the Kwan Um school and with a Korean Zen teacher separate from KUSZ, you are very much expected to be able to present an answer to your koan (Kung-an -Korean) or hwadu. If you had had a deep meditation experience or some insights, the idea is these answers should come out spontaneously. Dharma transmission in these traditions is given to those who can "pass" the most difficult of koans.

My Korean zen teacher once ask me about the Soto school. "If they do not use koans, how does the teacher know where the student is at?"
So, you are expected to answer. at least from what I've seen.

Ahh, I see, I see. My primary source is actually from popular Chinese teachers. For example, Sheng Yen's huatou isn't answered, but the doubt is used to 'summon' some kensho experience. Nevertheless, I suppose it's all just hypotheses on my part since I never trained under any Chinese teachers.

There's actually a Chan temple here in Metro Manila, but getting there is not the most convenient thing for me. Never gone there yet.

Gassho, Ben

[Ryumon]

I've been following this thread with interest. Today, I was thinking: can you take the "buddhism" out of "zen?" If zazen is studying the self, as Dogen says:

"To study the Buddha Way is to study the self, to study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things."

then we don't need any isms. The Buddha didn't need buddhism when he was sitting.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Hans]

Hello,

it all comes down to the question whom we allow to be the definite voice in the end.

A question of authority. Whom we give it to.

For some, only the traditional Pali based traditions are allowed to represent real Buddhism, for others a non-dual experience is essential to making Zen what it is (even maybe encompassing other religions). There are many shades in between these two positions, but in the end Sawaki Kodo might agree that it is about US and our lives.

Some arguments for what makes Zen Zen, or Buddhism Buddhism are pretty convincing, others are not, but nevertheless each single one of us has to grow up one of these days. When the shit hits the fan in our lives, the posturing and arguments have to cease. What is left then?

That's when push comes to shove. Let's hope we all find our non-positions in a wise and mutually supportive way.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Tiwala]

Wow, brillianty said and written, Hans.

Gassho, gassho

Gassho, Ben

[Ishin]

Boy this" trend" sure has a long track record. Maybe Christianity is the new trend.

Gassho
C

[TimF]

I find that the more I adhere to following the Eight-Fold path, the less of a "monkey mind" I have when I sit zazen. I for one have a hard time seeing how the teaching of the Buddha could be separate from Zen. For example: If I were not following Right Action, such as not keeping relationships healthful or acting compassionately, then I will in turn have more "weight" on my mind. If I have spoken ill of a co-worker, then I will most likely (I'm about my own experience here) have intense thoughts about what I said carry over to the zafu.

Gassho,
Tim