When we take Buddhism out of Zen

[Kokuu]

Hi all

Sometimes I get sad when I see Buddhist teachings watered down (as I see it) or Zen used more as a buzzword than a description of a form of Buddhism. However, if I try and control how the word is used or whether other people are drawn to authentic practice or not I will likely drive myself mad. Sure, if people use the word wrongly on a Zen Buddhist forum, it is good to correct it, but otherwise I find it easier to concentrate on my own practice and setting as good an example I can of our form of Soto Zen than worrying that someone has set up a business called Zen Waterfalls that is doing a roaring trade.

Gassho
Andy

[Ryumon]

In our strange Shikantaza way, we attain this unattainable by the radical stopping and ceasing of "useless" Zazen. We realize Enlightenment when we give up the hot pursuit of "Enlightenment" and perfectly rest.

Dude, frame this!

Many gasshos,

Kirk

[Jinyo]

Hi all

Sometimes I get sad when I see Buddhist teachings watered down (as I see it) or Zen used more as a buzzword than a description of a form of Buddhism. However, if I try and control how the word is used or whether other people are drawn to authentic practice or not I will likely drive myself mad. Sure, if people use the word wrongly on a Zen Buddhist forum, it is good to correct it, but otherwise I find it easier to concentrate on my own practice and setting as good an example I can of our form of Soto Zen than worrying that someone has set up a business called Zen Waterfalls that is doing a roaring trade.

Gassho
Andy

I totally agree Andy,



Willow

[Jundo]

You know, Buddhism has been being "watered down" for 2500 years. Perhaps, in some ways, the situation is better now than ever. The "golden good old days" were not necessarily so good or golden as our idealized pictures of the past. How?

Well, first, outside of monasteries for lay folks, there were very few lay men who had the time, energy, education, opportunity, availability of an easily accessible community of teachers and fellow practitioners. The situation was even more restricted in traditional, conservative socieities for women! For those lay folks who did have some calling toward Buddhism, the best option was a "faith based" flavor which called for prayer and faith in a "Buddha in the sky" such as Amida or any of the other countless Buddhist figures who, with prayer, would take one to a "pie in the sky when you die" heaven or better rebirth. There is nothing wrong with that, and I do not criticize, just in the same way that I do not criticize the very similar beliefs of Christianity (so extremely similar on some many fronts, in fact, that I believe the need for such beliefs are hard wired into us somehow). These pathways are what some people need and benefit from, and the right medicine for so many. **

And what did people pray for? Why, health, wealth, success in business and for their children. The same things that people pray for now. The same feeling of peace, contentment and being protected that people "mindfully" meditate for now.

Even within the monasteries of the past (even the monasteries of today in many traditional places), the situation was far from golden. It was a mixed bag and, in some ways, your opportunities to practice (dear reader of this post) are better now than the folks had back in Dogen's day right at Eiheiji. How? I had a series on that, pointing to the "plusses and minuses" of monastic practice ...

Lay practice now is not the same as lay practice has been in centuries past.

One vital reason for monasteries and the like ... from the earliest days of Buddhism ... was an absence of other chances for communication with teachers and fellow practitioners, and a lack of other means to encounter "live teachings". In other words, wandering ascetics walking hither and thither in the Buddha's time needed to gather during the rainy seasons to "touch base" and reconnect with the group after being on their own for weeks and months. In the middle ages in China and Japan, one could not easily encounter a Buddhist teacher, teachings and opportunities to practice without going to live full time in a monastery. This is just no longer the case. Members of our Treeleaf Sangha, for example, can have 24 hour contact, using modern means of communication, with teachers, teachings, sittings, robe sewing, Sutra and Text study, sharing with fellow practitioners times of sickness and health and smiles and tears, Samu, spiritual friendships, "sharp stones crashing into each other" ... much of which, until the current times, was denied to people outside monastery walls.

In some important ways, sincere lay practitioners today may enjoy better surrounding circumstances for practice than did the average monk in, for example, Dogen's day. Things in the "Golden Age" were not so golden as we too easily romanticize. Most monks back then were half-educated (even in Buddhism), semi-literate (or what passed for literacy in those times), superstition driven, narrow folks who may have understood less about the traditions and teachings they were following ... their history and meaning and depth ... than we now know. The conditions for practice within old temples and monasteries might have been less than ideal, many teachers less than ideal, despite our idealization of the old timers. Studying Sutras by smoky oil lamp, living one's days out in Japan or Tibet while having no real information grasp on China and India and the customs of prior centuries, living in a world of rumor and magic and misunderstanding (in which all kinds of myths and stories and superstitions were taken as explanations for how the world works), unable to access a modern Buddhist library, or to "Google" a reliable source (emphasis on making sure it is reliable however!) to check some point, or to ask a real expert outside one's limited circle, being beholden to only one teacher at a time (no matter how poor a teacher), with no knowledge of the human brain and some very important discoveries of science ... and after all that effort ... getting sick and dying at the age of 40 from some ordinary fever. (Can you even imagine trying to listen to Dogen Zenji recite "live" a Shobogenzo teaching from way across the room ... without a modern microphone and PA system and "Youtube" to let one replay it all? I suppose many never heard a word!)

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls&p=58431&viewfull=1#post58431

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls&p=58800&viewfull=1#post58800

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls&p=59637&viewfull=1#post59637

Practice where and when you are ... the best place ... the only place possible.

Gassho, Jundo

** PS - Not all interpretations of so-called "Other Power" Buddhism (worship of Amida and the like) are simply a matter of prayer for "pie in the sky" and wish granting. For many, the doctrine is much more subtle, and the walls between so called "other power" and "self power" drop away. In fact, for many hundreds of years, Pure Land/Amida Buddhism and Zen have been all mixed together in places like China, Vietnam and Korea (not so much in Japan for historical reasons). As you may know, "Zen" is usually considered "Jiriki" Buddhism (self-power) in contrast to Pure Land "Tariki" (other power) Buddhism. For those who blended the Paths, all the doctrinal gaps and seeming inconsistencies between so-called "Inner Power" Zen and so called "Other Power" Buddhism as in Amida were worked out, basically by saying that inner is outer and outer is inner ... and anyway, what is "in" or "out"? Amida and his "Pure Land" Heaven "stand for something beyond words ... so we cannot say exactly what even if felt in the heart. Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh from Vietnam and many others teach a mix of Zen and Pure Land. D.T.Suzuki, toward the end of his life, mixed Rinzai practice with Pure Land. Here is a little on the history ...

http://www.cloudwater.org/index.php/pureland-buddhism/history-of-combined-practice

Here is a bit on the perspective of blending the two (by Thich Nhat Hanh) ...

http://www.urbandharma.org/ibmc/ibmc2/zpzp.html

Or course, there is the truth that there is no "self" or "other", that "going in" is but "reaching out" to the universe, that (as some Zen chants go) the "Pure Land is always right here". Sure.

[Yugen]

Hans wrote:

"but only where the tension in our hearts is most strong and most frustrating - there you can find out and lose who or what you really are.

Every frustration a gateway to freedom and certainty. Your freedom, and your certainty. Not someone else's second hand reality.

Keep asking, keep wrestling."

Wonderful - this speaks to me very profoundly Hans. Thank you for the teaching.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Shinzan]

Thank you, Hans, too. Going to the core of the most tense energy in my body, in my heart, has been the toughest part of practice for me lately. But also the most penetrating. These are the places where I am surely self-clinging. As it goes in the meal chant, "may all be free from self-clinging."

Bows. Shinzan

[alan.r]

Good thread. I like what Hans says about tension - I think that is right on.

The thing to be wary of, I think, is when Zen (or any other form of Buddhism or Meditation) becomes a product. I think that's dangerous and irresponsible. On the other hand, if people want to meditate to relax, to me, there is nothing wrong with this. They may not be practicing Buddhists, but I don't see it as a bad or dangerous thing. It would be like criticizing a runner, who feels "meditative" while they run, b/c they aren't really practicing Buddhism - it doesn't make sense. But yeah, when zen costs something, when you have to pay to learn meditation, when, because you're paying, you believe you're getting enlightened, well, that that me is manipulative and exploitive. It's one of the things that drew me to Treeleaf. Jundo and Taigu give of themselves, freely, without asking for anything in return, and that, to me, signals something sincere and honest, and something I'm deeply grateful for.

Anyway, interesting thread, and obviously, I think about this from time to time. There's a place in my town called Zen Garden Yoga, which seems to teach like three or four different things, none of them having to do with Zen - is it bad? Not really, unless they're telling people they'll get enlightened by paying for some classes.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Another small concern is people who shop through the "spiritual marketplace" as if it were a cafeteria in which they skip the nutritious veggies, heading right over to load up their tray at the desert counter! Or, folks mix and match without any sense of what goes with what ... a little Tibetan this, a little Zen that, a bit of a Hindu thing here ...

Mixing and matching is a fine art. One must pick and choose from the spiritual cafeteria well, not just head right for the desert section while neglecting the vegetables that are not as sweet on your tongue. Also, bananas are lovely and ketchup is lovely, but a little strange to mix for most (although, someone pointed out once, some folks do! It is just that the flavors just need to be blended carefully) ...



I fear that, these days, we live in a world of "fast food" cafeteria Buddhism and spirituality, where people head for the stuff they want (high in spiritual sugar and fat), not what they necessarily need ... demanding the fast "drive thru" in their busy day because they have no time or patience for a slow, nutritious cooked meal. People want instant gratification, as if Buddha were a bag of chips.

One should pick the Path suited for one ... and GO DEEP! DEEP! MEASURELESSLY DEEP! Do not neglect the garden veggies, even if a little bitter sometimes. Experience is a good teacher, if one is a person of some sense and fine taste. If one is mixing and matching to choose a menu, do so with the eye of a master cook ... not grabbing whatever one sees off the convenience store shelf.

Many Buddhist Paths are pretty much a complete path. One can mix and match, but needs to be careful. For example, when sitting Shikantaza, when on the cushion ... THAT IS ALL THERE IS, THAT IS ALL NEEDED, WHOLE AND COMPLETE! Of course, one can get up from the cushion of Shikantaza and do other things ... bow down to Mecca or pray to the Goddess Isis. But when on the cushion sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza ... one does not sit Shikantaza while contemplating Allah or praying to the Goddess.

Gassho, J

PS - Turning from food to sports analogies ...

Treeleaf is a Dojo where a particular style is taught. It is much like saying that one can play tennis, but also like football, and both may be great sports. It is just that one needs to be careful about playing football with a tennis racket, or tennis with goal posts. Some ways do not mix well.

And while football may be a lovely sport, here in the Treeleaf Tennis School we play tennis ... not football. So, leave your cleats outside.

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Myosha

[TimF]

I have really been enjoying this thread and the conversation it has generated. It hits a bit home with me as I was originally drawn to Zen after my doctor recommended finding a "way" (pun intended!) to reduce stress. In essence, I was slowly killing myself with anger and frustration, which led to a vicious cycle of stress and a few unsavory health-related side-effects. It was the meditation method that first drew me to Zen, and I had no clue as to how it was related to Buddhism. In fact, in my mind's eye I associated Zen purely with the martial arts and Yoda from Star Wars. I pictured a bunch of Samurai sitting around and meditating before going out to kill (or be killed) and coming to terms with their fate by way of said meditation.

Anyhow, it was a friend of mine who suggested I look further into Zen for the benefits of "quieting the mind" and gaining the benefits of meditation. Well, being the visual learner that I am, I went out and bought a book called "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Zen Living" by Eve Adamson and Gary McClain (not a plug....no ties to the authors, however I do recommend it to anyone "new" to Zen). It was there that I read through the connection (or non-connection) between Zen and Buddhism and the history (or legend) of Siddhartha and his teachings. I encountered the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path. Well, they struck a cord with me and so here I am!

So in keeping with the original topic of this thread, I was initially drawn into Zen by a stereotyped impression, whereby I stumbled across the "deeper" teachings of the Buddha. It has opened my eyes, and it has most certainly helped me to improve my sitting, as well as how well I ride the waves of life. Therefore, I believe that even if someone becomes involved in Zen for reasons other than Buddha's teachings, that eventually she or he will benefit from just sitting. The rest will follow.

Gassho,
Tim

[Heisoku]

This is a interesting thread that has turned into an important question for me about my Buddhist practice, which recently I have found myself really questioning. It is good to reflect and challenge oneself and for me this thread has really helped bring me back to why I actually do this practice.
I arrived here at Treeleaf, perhaps like many of us, as a result of some questioning about this 'reality' of this life, which was as I read about, just as Gautama did....a man. For me, what was so wonderful was that he questioned himself and he questioned his experience and he rationalised the cause and effects around what reality he and his understanding of it created...happiness or suffering. So he simply challenged this, over and over. He investigated further until the end of it and then developed his teachings. But he always left it up to other individuals to make their own investigations, in fact he insisted on it. He simply pointed the way and gave us an indication of what he had discovered on the way and the path that he had used. This basis of personal investigation is what I liked. Now, we can investigate using Buddha's methods and it is up to us how far we take this. We may stop at mindfulness, as it creates peace we may think we seek... and that is OK in my book, or if we so wish we can question further and really challenge the reality we THINK we experience. In the end zen is one of the methods we can use. I used to think that if he could do it then so could I! Modern life is not so simple, and the tensions and challenges that are part of any form of investigative and creative work impact in all aspects of my life, even more so when making a first-person study of what this is that is here! So this path gets harder, really hard. Even with experienced teachers it's still up to me to go further. How can you take Buddha out of zen? Only by taking taking yourself out of zen!
So I just practice shikantaza zazen and the practice here at Treeleaf, the dharma of the Buddha, and it's great to do this with like-minded friends! Gassho.

[Taikyo]

Hi Victor,

I do feel that "Zen" or "Mindfulness" or other like meditation courses and therapies stripped of their Buddhist elements miss the real "powerhouse" medicine this Way has to offer, to wit, the embodying of basic Buddhist Teachings on "non-self", "Emptiness" "Dukkha/the Four Noble Truths" "Impermanence" the Precepts and Bodhisattva Vows and others. There must be a doorway (doorless doorway) to Awakening.

Without allowing someone to fully transcend the small "self", and to truly embody "Emptiness", meditation is often little more than a relaxation technique or watered down medicine.

Gassho, Jundo

Spot on methinks

Thank You Jundo

In Gassho

Taikyo

[Ishin]

You know, Buddhism has been being "watered down" for 2500 years. Perhaps, in some ways, the situation is better now than ever. The "golden good old days" were not necessarily so good or golden as our idealized pictures of the past. How?

I couldn't agree with you more! The closest physical Zendo ( other than mine) is 90 minutes drive from me. If I had to learn all I have absorbed here in the last 6 months from books at the library, assuming I could get them, it would have taken me much longer. I don't think what is possible now, even WITH a closer physical Zendo, would have been available to me as little as 20 years ago. Thank you all for participating in this Sangha!



Gassho
C

[Ishin]

Another small concern is people who shop through the "spiritual marketplace" as if it were a cafeteria in which they skip the nutritious veggies, heading right over to load up their tray at the desert counter! Or, folks mix and match without any sense of what goes with what ... a little Tibetan this, a little Zen that, a bit of a Hindu thing here ...

I agree again! you're on a roll I saw so much of this crossbreeding spiritual junkie type in Southern California. Jack of all Trades Masters of None. And very little real wisdom practice or understanding either. I tend to believe that it is more like a spiritual buffet where people are only picking the parts of each the like or agree with, and discarding the rest. They want to appear spiritual, but not really do any of the work, or as you say eat their veggies. ( I also happen to see the same phenomena with many alternative health practitioners) You have to put your roots down somewhere eventually or you never hit water!

Gassho
C

PS I think I will eat my veggies instead of the banana ketchup.