When we take Buddhism out of Zen

[Kyonin]

Hi all.

I am loving this thread, but I took a few days to sit with it. Here are my two cents, which are similar to what's already been said.

When I began running I was desperate to do anything to improve my health. I didn't know how I was supposed to run, but I knew I had to do it. I had seen the results of it in many friends and in the ads. Running makes you better. Running heals you.

So I read a couple of blog posts and started only to hit myself against a wall again and again. Injuries were a daily thing.

Then it hit me. A couple blog posts wouldn't cut it. I needed more quality information. So I started reading books and asking the pros.

One step at a time I sucked less and less. I still suck, of course. But at least I now have a guru to slap me in the forehead whenever I'm doing something stupid (which is most of the time)

So I think the analogy holds true. If you want McBuddhism, sure, you can get it. Tons of enlightenment and mindfulness, just like a Big Mac has tons of salt, chemicals and grease.

You can take some elements and change names and labels, to use them in your daily life.

But taking Buddhism out of Zen is like drinking decaff coffee. You only get a spiritless and bland stuff.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[LucardieC]

Wow lots to read, and take in.

As a new practising Buddhist and sitting Zazen; I can maybe be a little candle shedding some light on the topic.

The popularity of "Zen" has grown, and become almost a creature of it's own these days. I've had many friends, and family comment on how I'm just "following a trend."

That makes me quite sad. I agree that people have watered it down, some for the good intention of understanding in their own way; others for benefit of themselves which isn't very Buddhist at all. I have to be honest, I've been overwhelmed sometimes with the amount of knowledge on each of the part of Buddhism and Zen. But, (and of course in my own personal opinion) being Buddhist is expanding one's knowledge, while being kind, compassionate and mindful. Each of those things requires much concentration (as a novice) and Zen (again in my own personal opinion) is a way to find that balance. Sitting Zazen; helps a new mind sort things out and understand themselves. For a more senior Buddhist, it is to remember clarity. Each of which to better themselves to better the people around them. Being "Zen" is fully and completely useful, for those who find it that way.

A river will follow the same path for decades, but the water travelling that path has come from a different place each time, whether it a cloud that has travelled many miles, a deer with dew stuck to it's legs going for a drink. It is the same with human beings. We can all follow the truest, oldest path of Buddhism and the traditions, but with each generation; is new knowledge and understandings. Our fundamentals are all the same, we each just like a different flavour now and again. To be a good chef, is to be knowledgeable of different ways to cook the same dish.

Gassho,
C

[Amelia]

C,

There's no senior Buddhists or novice Buddhists. Just people who have either practiced for a long or short time. Some have been assigned some kind of rank, some have not. For some a few years is a long time and for others it is barely stepping over the gate. For some who have practiced a long time, there are days when they do not feel the clarity that you mentioned, and those who have barely practiced at all may be in the very midst of Nirvana, full of Beginner's Mind.

Zen is usefulness and uselessness together.

To be knowledgeable of different ways to "cook" is good, however most good chefs pick a favorite method and hone their skills with time, perhaps making something new and their own out of it, perhaps not.

[Jundo]

C,

There's no senior Buddhists or novice Buddhists. Just people who have either practiced for a long or short time. Some have been assigned some kind of rank, some have not. For some a few years is a long time and for others it is barely stepping over the gate. For some who have practiced a long time, there are days when they do not feel the clarity that you mentioned, and those who have barely practiced at all may be in the very midst of Nirvana, full of Beginner's Mind.

Zen is usefulness and uselessness together.

To be knowledgeable of different ways to "cook" is good, however most good chefs pick a favorite method and hone their skills with time, perhaps making something new and their own out of it, perhaps not.

Please listen to this very experienced voice! Lovely!

The only comment I would add is that there is no "rank" and we are all "the person of no rank".

Some folks just lead the class because they have sat in the lesson before, or drive the Buddha-bus because they are a bit more experienced in turning the wheel and pushing the pedals.

An old Koan by Master Rinzai, quoted by Master Dogen in Shinji Shobogenzo No. 147 ...

There is a true person who has no rank. He is always going in and out through [the sense portals of] your face. A beginner who has not experienced this should look carefully. Look!

Gassho, J

[Amelia]

Some days experienced. Some days not. Many bows. The koan will probably sit me a few days. Thank you, Jundo.

[Jundo]

Hey Tim! I have ADD too, and some other people here.

Shikantaza isn't really about taming the mind... nor is it really secular or sacred (in my current understanding) many times I still frolick around like a madman in my head and all thoughts are violently asserting themselves, but they're just thoughts. . . Whole and complete, even when they drop away like my brain is shedding skin 900000 times a second.

Nevertheless, it has personally helped me learn how to let go of thoughts, and not be enslaved by them as much. I learned that I don't really need to react to my thoughts, that I don't need to believe them all the time (or at all sometimes)... most of all that they never last forever...and thus not -me-

So, who am I, really?

Gassho, Ben

As the driver of the bus, let me just ADD this point ...

Zen folks have a lovely way of talking out of both sides of our no sided mouth. So, for example, when we sit Zazen, we sit beyond and right through all human preferences and thoughts of "hot and cold" ... yet Dogen advised that we should sit in a room that is neither too hot nor too cold when we can. We sit beyond and right through "clean vs. dirty", yet best to sit in a clean room with clean clothes. A quite room is best, although we sit with an inner stillness that transcends all noise or silence.

Of course, if one needs to sit in a cold, dirty and noisy place with no escape ... one sits right there, finding the Warmth, Silence and Purity that transcends all small human judgments of opposites. Such is Shikantaza. There is no "bad Zazen" ... even the days of really "bad Zazen".

So, your advice as follows is lovely, wise counsel ... Beautiful! ...

many times I still frolick around like a madman in my head and all thoughts are violently asserting themselves, but they're just thoughts. . . Whole and complete, even when they drop away like my brain is shedding skin 900000 times a second.

But let me just add that, when the thoughts and emotions get really really really out of control and wild, there is a middle way here. There are some steps that one can take to bring things within some balance.

Last time, I spoke about how there is no “bad” Zazen, even on those days when the mind is very cloudy with thoughts and emotions. But in fact, there are a couple of things we can do to settle down when the mind is really, really, really, stirred up with tangled thoughts, wild emotions and confusion.

We can count the breaths, for example, counting from 1 to 10 at each inhalation and exhalation, then coming back to one and starting all over when we reach ten (which we rarely do) or lose track. Or we can simply follow the breath without counting, for example, observing effortlessly as it enters and exits the nose. These are excellent practices, and will calm the mind (itself a form of Shikantaza that some people pursue, even for a lifetime!). HOWEVER, for reasons I will discuss, I recommend such practices only as temporary measures for true beginners with no experience of how to let the mind calm at all, or others on those sometime days when the mind really, really, really is upset and disturbed. AS SOON AS the mind settles a bit, I advise the we return our attention to “the clear, blue, spacious sky that holds all“, letting clouds of thought and emotion drift from mind, focused on what can be called “everything, and nothing at all” or “no place and everyplace at once.” I will explain why in today’s talk.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29

Usually, we sit still and dry in our boat at the center of the storming waves, the eye of the hurricane ... but sometimes we need a bit of an anchor. Master Keizan, Dogen's Dharma-Grandson in the 14th century, had this to advice as temporary measures when the mind gets too crazy ...

If your mind is disturbed, rest it on the tip of the nose or below the navel and count your inhaled and exhaled breath. If your mind still is not calm, take a Koan and concentrate on it. For example consider these non-taste stories: Who is this that thus comes? (Hui-neng); Does a dog have Buddha nature? (Chao-chou); Yun men's Mt Sumeru and Chao-chou's oak tree in the garden. These are available applications. If your mind is still disturbed, sit and concentrate on the moment your breath has stopped and both eyes have closed forever, or on the unborn state in your mother's womb or before one thought arises. If you do this, the two Sunyatas (non-ego) will emerge, and the disturbed mind will be put at rests.

http://www.zenki.com/index.php?lang=en&page=Keizan01

The reference to concentrating on a Koan temporarily or on some state of Oneness or Non-birth is a temporary measure to get the mind to some workable degree of balance and concentration when the "monkees" of the monkey mind really are going on a rampage! Usually, we let monkeys just be monkeys, "paying them no nevermind", letting them do their swinging in the vines ... but sometimes we try to quiet the rampage.



Gassho, J

[Tiwala]

Whoa! Did not know we could concentrate on a koan for a truly disturbed mind! No wonder I had been feeling that the huatou is a verbal shikantaza. Well, at least it was to me... then again... what is shikantaza and huatou anyway?

Is koan concentration to still the mind ever still used in some Japanese Soto monasteries/temples?


Gassho, Ben

[Jishin]

Is koan concentration to still the mind ever still used in some Japanese Soto monasteries/temples?

Gassho, Ben

Mu. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

[Seiryu]

What is a more profound koan than shikantaza itself.

"to study the Buddha way is to study the self..."

not in the head, but in the heart.

Just sitting. Letting go of all thoughts of gain and loss. How can we do this? Can it be done? Who is there to do it?

When we allow ourselves to just settle into where we already are, we are face to face, eyeball to eyeball with the most direct and profound of all koans.
Life.
Our self.
Yourself.
Just. This. Right. Now.

Nothing added. Nothing removed.

[Kantai]

Koancentration...😂
I'm sorry..

Gassho
Kantai

[Jundo]

Whoa! Did not know we could concentrate on a koan for a truly disturbed mind! No wonder I had been feeling that the huatou is a verbal shikantaza. Well, at least it was to me... then again... what is shikantaza and huatou anyway?

Is koan concentration to still the mind ever still used in some Japanese Soto monasteries/temples?


Gassho, Ben

It may be, but really the point is not different in Keizan's recommendation from following the breadth, reciting a mantra, focusing on one's belly button or the tip of the nose, focusing on some target ... just an anchor to use temporarily to center the mind and let things settle a bit. After things settle a bit, then one returns to open, spacious sitting. It is not the typical "Koan Introspection Zazen" meant to pierce the Koan in the Rinzai way, but just a handle to let one get a quick grip.

In the usual poetic way these old guys had of expressing things, Keizan says earlier in the essay about "no right or wrong" Zazen when done "right" ...

Although Zen talks about training, it is the training of no-action. The body does nothing except zazen. The mouth does not utter the Dharani, the mind does not work at conceptual thinking; the six sense organs are naturally pure and have no defilement. ... Nothing is done except zazen, and this zazen is called the Buddha's conduct. The trainee just dwells comfortably in the self-joyous meditation of the Buddhas ...

...

There is neither right and wrong nor good and evil. What is there to suppress and to stop? This is the formless virtue of Buddha nature. Usually zazen means concentrating the mind and eliminating extraneous thoughts. But in this zazen, we free ourselves from dualism of body and mind and of delusion and enlightenment. Neither the body nor mind changes, moves, acts, or worries.

Like a rock, like a stake, like a mountain, like an ocean, the two forms of movement and rest do not arise. This is meditation without the form of meditation. Because there is no form of meditation, it is called just meditation. But in this zazen we naturally destroy the obstacle of knowledge (ignorance), forget the delusive activity of the mind; our entire body becomes the eye of wisdom; there is no discrimination and recognition. We clearly see the Buddha nature and are inherently not deluded. We cut the delusive root of the mind and the light of the Buddha mind shines through suddenly.

...

Drop mind, intellect and consciousness, leave memory, thinking, and observing alone. Don't try to fabricate Buddha. Don't be concerned with how well or how poorly you think you are doing; just understand that time is as precious as if you were putting out a fire in your hair. ... Nyojo [Dogen's Teacher] always said that you can obtain your goal for the first time by merely sitting - without burning incense, giving salutation, saying the Nembutsu, practicing austerity, chanting the sutra, or performing various duties. ... Then you should sit like an immovable mountain. In this position try to think not thinking. How do you think not thinking? By nonthing, going beyond both thinking and not thinking. This is the key to zazen. You should cut off your delusions immediately and enlighten the way suddenly.

Gassho, Jundo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Ben,

Is koan concentration to still the mind ever still used in some Japanese Soto monasteries/temples?

AFAIK the Koan Zazen of the Rinzai sect is not there to still the mind, but to open the dharma eye. The koan stays with you even when you don't sit, until it "dissolves".
But perhaps it can also be used to give your mind something to focus on. Just wanted to add the original purpose according to what I have read.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Jishin]

Hi Ben,



AFAIK the Koan Zazen of the Rinzai sect is not there to still the mind, but to open the dharma eye. The koan stays with you even when you don't sit, until it "dissolves".
But perhaps it can also be used to give your mind something to focus on.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

I swallowed Mu one time until I passed it in a bowel movement. Too much work. I prefer Shikantaza. Sometimes I use Mu briefly now days just to still the mind enough for Shikantaza the same way I would as counting the breath or focusing the breath. Its Joshu's Dog, Case 18 in "The Book of Equanimity: Illuminating Classic Koans" that we covered in the "Beyond Words and Letters Book Club" studies that we are doing right now.

Gassho, Jishin

[Daitetsu]

I swallowed Mu one time until I passed it in a bowel movement.

Nice!
You have a beard.

Gassho,

Daitetsu