When we take Buddhism out of Zen

[Victor Chu]

From several experiences I came across, it seems like Zen had became a trend. It is trendy to be Zenny in many places. Zen to some people seem to be independent and has nothing to do with Buddhism. I believe Buddhism is essentially Zen so I don't see how Zen and Buddhism can be separated. The first moment the Buddha attain enlightenment, that was when Zen was born in my opinion.

Now Zen means a lot of thing, it means just sit together and meditate for relaxation which isn't a bad thing. It means interior and exterior decoration, it means fashion.

Do you think it is a bad thing that Zen doesn't necessarily has anything to do with Buddhism or any other aspect of Buddhism such as karma or rebirth at all anymore? Would this cause Zen Buddhism to deteriorate or does it actually promote Buddhism?

Gassho
Victor

[Ishin]

Hello Chuan Ming

You might want to check out some of Jundo's introductory videos in which he addresses some of these very questions. As for me, I think that many people are drawn to "Zen" for different reasons. Yes, relaxation being one of them. But is it so bad that they might also find that there is something deeper they might to learn about later? I think that this can be a doorway for many to discover more about Buddhism than they knew before. However, if they merely stop at relaxation then I think they are missing out on a great deal. There are movements out there, I think one is called Juniper , in which they are trying to "modernize" Buddhism by trying to teach Buddhist principles without so much Buddha. I am a bit of a traditionalist and a mystic as well, so for me, I think it sounds like catchy merchandise packing for the new hip crowd. What would Buddha say? I don't know, expect that I am not so sure he would be caught up with people following HIM, as much as exploring his truths for themselves.

Gassho
C

[Jinyo]

Hello there Victor,

I think we live in a pick and mix global society. I don't mind so much if others want to take certain aspects of Zen (like meditation) if they find it helpful.
It would only bother me if I was a teacher of Zen specifically - and then I would want to be certain I was teaching all aspects of Zen as an expression of Buddhism.

There is of course no definitive Buddhism - only the underlying teachings of the dharma of the Buddha which ground all the different expressions. I feel it's a shame that the core of the teaching is often put to one side, though certain aspects do underly what is being put across.

Knowledge and understanding evolves in interesting ways and perhaps this 'phase' of modernizing buddhism will be followed by a return to more traditional or mystical elements.

Gassho

Willow

[Entai]

Hi Victor,
I see where you're coming from. Zen is sometimes paired with the "image" people have of Zen (I'm sure we all do that at times). It used to bother me...sort of a "they don't get it" mentality. But now I look at it differently. Maybe it will help some people find peace in their hearts and minds. Maybe they will explore it more. Or possibly that this is how Zen Buddhism is beginning to manifest itself in modern society....a seed to grow at another time.

Gassho,
Entai / Bill

[Jundo]

Hi Victor,

I do feel that "Zen" or "Mindfulness" or other like meditation courses and therapies stripped of their Buddhist elements miss the real "powerhouse" medicine this Way has to offer, to wit, the embodying of basic Buddhist Teachings on "non-self", "Emptiness" "Dukkha/the Four Noble Truths" "Impermanence" the Precepts and Bodhisattva Vows and others. There must be a doorway (doorless doorway) to Awakening.

Without allowing someone to fully transcend the small "self", and to truly embody "Emptiness", meditation is often little more than a relaxation technique or watered down medicine.

David Loy and Ron Purser had some additional criticisms of the "mindfulness" movement in a recent essay ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-purser/beyond-mcmindfulness_b_3519289.html

Now that being said, folks for centuries have turned to Zen just to relax, improve their health, improve their performance in their career. Is that a problem? Well, perhaps not, especially if it leads some (as mentioned by Clark) to delve deeper later on. It is a shame that they are missing the real power of the Practice, like someone who gets on an airplane but never takes off.

And just a final note: I did not include mechanical views of Karma and detailed descriptions of "post-mortem rebirth" in my list. Like many modern Teachers, I am rather agnostic on the topic and do not take those as central to Practice in this life, here and now.

Gassho, Jundo

[Hans]

Hello Victor,

yours are important questions. Although it is IMHO precisely the impossibility of finding definite general answers that makes the questions so powerful.

Where does Buddhism stop and where does superstition start?

Where and when does western empricism become arrogance?

How does all this relate to my experience here and now?

There is tension in those questions, but only where the tension in our hearts is most strong and most frustrating - there you can find out and lose who or what you really are.

Every frustration a gateway to freedom and certainty. Your freedom, and your certainty. Not someone else's second hand reality.


Keep asking, keep wrestling.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Victor Chu]

Hi TreeLeaf Sangha,

Thank you for all the response and inputs.

I came from a Pure Land tradition which is why I think my view is so conservative and so traditional sometimes, especially regarding things such as Karma and rebirth, it is something that became a part of me since I had been around it for so long. But I can definitely see why it isn't exactly the focus in Zen, since Zen focus on here and now. As stated by Entai, the modernization of Zen could very much be how Zen Buddhism is manifesting itself in modern society and we probably can see Buddhism do that throughout its history. However with that said, I feel like the separation of Zen from Buddhism is like separating a child from his parents, or a river without a source.

In my opinion, when Buddhism is removed from Zen, it is like removing all the flavors and seasoning from a dish. It isn't the same and doesn't taste the same. I guess like stated above by many and Jundo, it is watered down. Infact like it was stated above, That is not to say it still can't benefits people. Infact, as modern society evolves, most of us are probably trying to move away from what is considered "Mystical" in order to seem less backward and outdated. Maybe the watered-down Zen is what needed in order to have some people practicing it who would not otherwise.

Like Hans said I can't really answer since everybody is different and what works for one doesn't work for others. Personally in my foolish opinion, it just seems rather sad. I think the only way I can describe how I feel about it is as if a civilization rich in customs and tradition forgetting its ancestor and history and what all these customs mean.

Gassho
Victor

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the lesson.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Risho]

Maybe the watered-down Zen is what needed in order to have some people practicing it who would not otherwise.

To echo what's already been said, but I'm compelled. lol

Zen is completely useless. Watered down zen used to help someone feel good or to be more productive or fashionable is not Zen. In the end, Zen is Buddhism. This is zazen Buddhism.

I can understand filtering out the superstitions like reincarnation, but using zazen as a means to achieve something, like a comfortable state, isn't zen.

Gassho,

Risho

[Victor Chu]

Hi Risho,

I agree with you but what you said makes me wonder. In Buddhism, we all pretty much ultimately aim to realize enlightenment and be awakened to our true nature. When we are awakened we enter a state of mind called Nirvana which is the state of ultimate bliss. Is it really that far from the fact then that some people use zen meditation to achieve a comfortable state of mind?

I often wonder then if rebirth is filtered out, would that affect the need for practicing Buddhism? I suppose that is for another day.

Gassho
Victor

[Risho]

No you don't understand what I'm saying. Zen is completely useless. It is not used to realize some other elevated state, enlightenment, belief in rebirth or what have you. Just sit, not "Just Sit for...".

Really. Just Sit

Gassho,

Risho

[Juki]

we all pretty much ultimately aim to realize enlightenment and be awakened to our true nature. When we are awakened we enter a state of mind called Nirvana

hmmm. When I bend my knees, I try to aim straight enough that my butt hits my Zafu. Otherwise, no aims, no gaining ideas, no thoughts of betterment. Zen is useless.

Gassho,
Juki/William

[Victor Chu]

No you don't understand what I'm saying. Zen is completely useless. It is not used to realize some other elevated state, enlightenment, belief in rebirth or what have you. Just sit, not "Just Sit for...".

Really. Just Sit

Gassho,

Risho

Ah that is it. Nothing to understand.

hmmm. When I bend my knees, I try to aim straight enough that my butt hits my Zafu. Otherwise, no aims, no gaining ideas, no thoughts of betterment. Zen is useless.

Gassho,
Juki/William

Very useless indeed.

Gassho
Victor

[Jundo]

Hi Risho,

I agree with you but what you said makes me wonder. In Buddhism, we all pretty much ultimately aim to realize enlightenment and be awakened to our true nature. When we are awakened we enter a state of mind called Nirvana which is the state of ultimate bliss. Is it really that far from the fact then that some people use zen meditation to achieve a comfortable state of mind?

I often wonder then if rebirth is filtered out, would that affect the need for practicing Buddhism? I suppose that is for another day.

Gassho
Victor

Hi Victor,

I can only speak for the little cornerless corner of Buddhism which I occupy, but many Zen Teachers I know have a rather interesting way to express this Buddha state of "ultimate bliss". It is not some mere perpetual la la happy happy joy joy of little human judgment. When the needs of the little selfish-self are transcended, 'tis rather a kind of Bliss (Big "B") that holds, dances and flowers as all the small human moments of smiles and tears, bliss and distress. One need not even feel happy all the time, and there is a certain "Bliss" as one sits broken hearted next to the casket of someone loved. It is a Peace that holds peace and war, all the round and sharp pieces of life. No need to feel merely "peaceful" all the time.

Nor do I think that such perpetual bliss and perfect peace is possible to human beings ... even to the human being who was "buddha" ... absent the imagination of later religious writers. On the other hand, Bliss and Peace are perfectly available to any of us ... you and me ... to experience first hand on the Zazen cushion, on a mountain, in our living room or casket side.

In our strange Shikantaza way, we attain this unattainable by the radical stopping and ceasing of "useless" Zazen. We realize Enlightenment when we give up the hot pursuit of "Enlightenment" and perfectly rest.

On another note ... many modern Zen Teachers do accept "rebirth" in the perpetual instant by instant sense, by which we are constantly reborn. As well, I do not know about the "heavens" or "hells" which may exist after we die, but I do see the hells that many people create for themselves (and those around them) right in this life ... and the heavens and hells that people experience right between their ears.

Gassho, Jundo

[Victor Chu]

Hi Jundo,

Thank you very much for sharing your insight. I think at the moment I still have problem wrapping my mind around the idea. I guess the only way is to sit and experience it myself.

On rebirth, what you said remind me of a Vietnamese Zen monk Thich Nhat Hanh that said rebirth happens every moment, we are dying every moment and reborning. Maybe it is true that it seems useless to worry about what happened after death when suffering is now.

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Victor